View Poll Results: Support or oppose Castle Doctrine?

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Thread: Castle Doctrine

  1. #106
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    I absolutely believe in the castle doctrine...I live in CT and we had a terrible home invasion in Cheshire that took the lives of a mother and two daughters...they need to have this in every state!

  2. #107
    Military Professional Prof's Avatar
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    BD1:

    Apart from a bizarre, totally inexplicable & not really applicable outdoor shootout that occurred when I was 17, this is the closest that I can come:

    Stage setting: New Years Eve/Day '70-'71, 618 Tasker St., South Phillie (Stationed @ USN Hospital Philadelphia). 4th floor walk-up in one of the squillions of tarpaper "brownstones" in this primarily Italian neighborhood. The kitchen of each apartment in my building was divided from the living area by the stairwell landing & had a separate lockable door (naturally, effectiverly unlocked from the kitchen side). The building to the right as you looked out the front door was occupied by my landlord & his family. The building to the left was occupied by some minor Rizzo (an infamous mayor)administration ward heeler & his family. The neighbor was reputed to be mobbed up. My landlord was terrified of this guy, & of his older sons, one 22, one 19.

    Something woke me up. I had a dim impression of some sort of noisiness having recently gone on outside our living area door. Got up, woke up Mary & went out into the landing (euphemistically, the "hall"). The kitchen door was standing open & snow was blowing into the kitchen & landing through the open kitchen window. Tea, Coffee, flour, corn meal, grits (O great awakening for some of our native Philadelphian neighbors) & sugar cannisters were dumped all over the place, making an unbelievable mess. There were left-behind tools scattered around, mostly on or under the windowsill, all of which I still have. One of those was a nifty KaBar with the old-style laminated blade. The others included a small pry bar, a huge screw driver, a nice little electrician's pocket knife & (weirdly?) a pack of sandpaper. Looking (& then climbing) out the window I saw two double lines of footprints with clear sole markings leading from the suspicious neighbor's 4th floor back door to our window (we didn't have a door) & back.

    Called the cops. They arrived immediately. A pair of them. Young. One black, one white. Neat, trim & professional. Gratifyingly concerned. Until they scoped out the scene. They looked at one another, & then one of them climbed out the window & began walking up & down over the tracks in the snow, obliterating them, while the other began vigorously picking up & handling all the tools. I diffidently objected, asking about fingerprints & messing with evidence. They explained that many burglaries took the form of breaking into one place, going on to another across the roof terraces & that this was obviously one of those. I said something like "Aw, come on." & then they turned into werewolves. "What do you think these guys were after? Why did they dump all this shit out of your kitchen cannisters? Were they after drugs? Looks like they were after drugs. You got any drugs? You use drugs?" When they left I had the feeling I had barely escaped doing time for being burglarized.

    Didn't have a gun up until that moment in Phillie. Nothing to hunt. All I had in B'ham was an old 16Ga Smith double & a Remington single shot .22 my grandfather had given me & a .30/30 winchester 94 & a 2.5" SS .410 from my old man. Never felt the need for a pistol. The hospital's Operations Officer cut through the shit (I've rarely run into the bureaucratic foulups the military is supposedly famous for) & cut me some quick leave. I flew home, bought a lousy .38 revolver from my uncle, packed it & the LC Smith with a box of #1 buck & flew back "home."

    Now. What have we here? I think that this little episode exposes some of the complexities inherent in armed self-defense. Given that I'm confident (based on my behavior during the weird 17yo gunfight episode) that I wouldn't hesitate to shoot if I thought it neccessary:
    a) Would I have caught these guys? probably not. They obviously fled when I started making noise.
    b) Would I have been justified in waxing the dudes (neighborhood skinny labled the two older sons of the supposedly mobbed-up neighbor as the malefactors) if I had cought them? I, personally, think so, but even in Alabama I'd probably be on shaky ground because of the unusual relationship of the living area to the break-in site.
    c) Since I already knew of the supposed relationship between the Phillie mob & the father, would I have been justified in shooting these people, no matter what the provocation, since doing so would very likely have place my wife at risk somewhere down the line?
    d) In this admittedly trivial case, the police, for whom I have an automatic, sort of knee-jerk admiration & affection, acted as accessories after the fact. I'm still a little scarred by it. It was my first, & niaive, confrontation with blatant political corruption. Quo vadis?

    I still haven't figured out where I stand philosophically on that particular episode, & I'm still shocked by it nearly 40 years later. I do know that since then I've had some sort of effective loaded gun hidden (or ostentatiously displayed out of little kids' reach) but easily at hand in every room in my house, & plan to shoot anyone who might break in, so I guess as a matter of practicum I've made my decision.

    Oh. Center of mass. Of course. I can finally hit things with a handgun, but going for wings & thighs is idiocy, & will quickly get yo' ass selected out of the gene pool.

    Doc

  3. #108
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    Some of the things posted here re the laws in Australia are not quite correct.

    We are supposed to have uniform gun laws accross all states but that is not the case.
    In South Australia we do have most elements of the Castle law but obviously not known as that.

    Victoria and Western Australia have far stricter laws than we do.

    Anyway, there are some who have their own quaint way of advertising their own Castle law.
    This sign hung on a fence in Queeensland.:P

    Sorry about quality, taken with a very early phone camera.

    Cheers.
    Attached Images  

  4. #109
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    I believe in the right to defend your self when you - or anybody else - are in danger. This is common sense.

    There is no need to have the right to kill anyone who univited is on your property. The Police will take care of those people, eventually.

    If you think you need to defend your property from any trespassing by shoting at the trespasser is there only two scenarios.

    A) You are a sociopath who really likes the feeling when you kill someone, and you strongly believe in deadly violence as the best way to handle a dispute. You don't believe the government can garantee your safety, especially since the government is after you. You don't trust anyone but yourself (see below).

    B) You are not living in a society governed by law. Hence you have to make up your own "laws" since you are living in an anarchy. In other words, there are no laws.

    Your "property" is in fact not your property, it is just stuff you have at your disposal. Since there are no society with laws is there no meaning with the term "property" (there are no institution that it can be registered at). You can only claim that what is yours is what you can defend against others who wants what you believe is yours. Hence, deadly violence is a matter of surviving since you can't trust anyone.

    Then are you living an a pre-Hobbesian world before people started to cooperate with eachother in what we now knows as "societies".

  5. #110
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    Everyone should have a sign like that in their yard!

  6. #111
    Military Professional DragoonGuard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battenberg View Post
    I believe in the right to defend your self when you - or anybody else - are in danger. This is common sense.

    There is no need to have the right to kill anyone who univited is on your property. The Police will take care of those people, eventually.

    If you think you need to defend your property from any trespassing by shoting at the trespasser is there only two scenarios.

    A) You are a sociopath who really likes the feeling when you kill someone, and you strongly believe in deadly violence as the best way to handle a dispute. You don't believe the government can garantee your safety, especially since the government is after you. You don't trust anyone but yourself (see below).

    B) You are not living in a society governed by law. Hence you have to make up your own "laws" since you are living in an anarchy. In other words, there are no laws.

    Your "property" is in fact not your property, it is just stuff you have at your disposal. Since there are no society with laws is there no meaning with the term "property" (there are no institution that it can be registered at). You can only claim that what is yours is what you can defend against others who wants what you believe is yours. Hence, deadly violence is a matter of surviving since you can't trust anyone.

    Then are you living an a pre-Hobbesian world before people started to cooperate with eachother in what we now knows as "societies".

    Call the police when there is an intruder in my house trying to batter down the bedroom door of my 4 year old daughter, and they will eventually turn up?

    You sound like youve had a very sheltered life. We are not talking about shooting a some idiot who has climbed over you garden fence, nobody does that.

    Were talking three in the morning its dark, there are people moving around inside your house, your kids are screaming................

  7. #112

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    castle doctrine

    I noticed from the colored map that of the 9 non-castle doctrined states, 4 are located in the upper midwest(including my home state). That seems rather odd to me since midwestern states historically have been largely rural states. Though rural type people are the kind who would give the shirt off their backs to help their neighbor, they usually are very protective of their property when it comes to tresspassers. Anyways, for myself personally I could take or leave a castle doctrine. However, if my family is invoved in a threatening situation then I would definitely be in favor of a castle doctrine. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but there it is.

  8. #113
    OAF-Old Aggravating Fart Senior Contributor Shamus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonGuard View Post
    Call the police when there is an intruder in my house trying to batter down the bedroom door of my 4 year old daughter, and they will eventually turn up?

    You sound like youve had a very sheltered life. We are not talking about shooting a some idiot who has climbed over you garden fence, nobody does that.

    Were talking three in the morning its dark, there are people moving around inside your house, your kids are screaming................
    Agreed.....remember,when seconds count the police are just minutes away
    "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #114
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oliveryty View Post
    Down with the violent relocation in the cities of China!

    China should set up laws against violent relocation and proctect the depriviledged.

    People should be granted with the right of self-remedy agaist violent relocation.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  10. #115
    Official Thread Jacker Senior Contributor gunnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battenberg View Post
    I believe in the right to defend your self when you - or anybody else - are in danger. This is common sense.

    There is no need to have the right to kill anyone who univited is on your property. The Police will take care of those people, eventually.

    If you think you need to defend your property from any trespassing by shoting at the trespasser is there only two scenarios.

    A) You are a sociopath who really likes the feeling when you kill someone, and you strongly believe in deadly violence as the best way to handle a dispute. You don't believe the government can garantee your safety, especially since the government is after you. You don't trust anyone but yourself (see below).

    B) You are not living in a society governed by law. Hence you have to make up your own "laws" since you are living in an anarchy. In other words, there are no laws.

    Your "property" is in fact not your property, it is just stuff you have at your disposal. Since there are no society with laws is there no meaning with the term "property" (there are no institution that it can be registered at). You can only claim that what is yours is what you can defend against others who wants what you believe is yours. Hence, deadly violence is a matter of surviving since you can't trust anyone.

    Then are you living an a pre-Hobbesian world before people started to cooperate with eachother in what we now knows as "societies".
    I bet you also believe all wars are wrong and we should talk to those who wish us harm.

    Good luck to you.
    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

  11. #116
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    I never understood why someone will always "What about this" and "What about that".

    We are talking about Chester the Molester here coming on you property to do damage or harm not some frickin fairy tale. Act with since. Shoot the SOB first and the call the police and explain. Make sure your aim is good and get a pure bingo so Chester doesn't come back and try to sue.
    Si Uis Pacem Para Bellum
    Pax Per Potens

  12. #117
    Defense Professional RustyBattleship's Avatar
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    As for Castle Defense, I recall a newspaper article from some years ago about a young woman who drove over to visit her parents.

    As she pulled up in front of the house, across the street, she saw a moving van in her parent's driveway and a couple of men loading it up with furniture, TV, etc.

    She asked what were they doing and they answered that the owners were moving and they were the moving company.

    Well, she knew better and while their arms were laden with a heavy piece of furniture she ran into the house where she knew her father kept a .357 magnum revolver. She retrieved the gun, loaded it, called the police and then stepped outside and held the thieves at gunpoint until the cops arrived.

    Unfortunately the report did not go on to say who unloaded the truck and put everything back.
    Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capsoda View Post
    I never understood why someone will always "What about this" and "What about that".

    We are talking about Chester the Molester here coming on you property to do damage or harm not some frickin fairy tale. Act with since. Shoot the SOB first and the call the police and explain. Make sure your aim is good and get a pure bingo so Chester doesn't come back and try to sue.
    RustyBattleship:

    Yes. Yesyesyes. Although cross your fingers for that bingo, & be prepared for the unpleasantness that will certainly follow if the creep survives. Unfortunately, that travail is part of your civic duty these days.

    Doc (The Prof)

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battenberg View Post
    I believe in the right to defend your self when you - or anybody else - are in danger. This is common sense.

    There is no need to have the right to kill anyone who univited is on your property. The Police will take care of those people, eventually.

    If you think you need to defend your property from any trespassing by shoting at the trespasser is there only two scenarios.

    A) You are a sociopath who really likes the feeling when you kill someone, and you strongly believe in deadly violence as the best way to handle a dispute. You don't believe the government can garantee your safety, especially since the government is after you. You don't trust anyone but yourself (see below).

    B) You are not living in a society governed by law. Hence you have to make up your own "laws" since you are living in an anarchy. In other words, there are no laws.

    Your "property" is in fact not your property, it is just stuff you have at your disposal. Since there are no society with laws is there no meaning with the term "property" (there are no institution that it can be registered at). You can only claim that what is yours is what you can defend against others who wants what you believe is yours. Hence, deadly violence is a matter of surviving since you can't trust anyone.

    Then are you living an a pre-Hobbesian world before people started to cooperate with eachother in what we now knows as "societies".
    Battenburg:

    I'm not sure that I get you. Perhaps I missed something earlier. The Law is a machine. A wonderful machine but it's valuable only when it works. No one would ever think the less of you if you refused to mow your lawn with a broken lawn mower. They'd probably think you were stupid if you tried to do it.

    Doc

  15. #120
    New Member wakewithastart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnut View Post
    um...what does blue on the map mean?

    I absolutely favor castle doctrine. I would extend that onto outdoor property and defense of material possession as well.
    The seats were stolen from my car, parked outside my girlfriend's house, about a month and a half ago. I completely agree that the doctrine should extend to defense of material possession as well. I bought a pager alarm for the car, and have dreamed for a month and a half about them coming back, and me shooting them. Probably wouldn't go over too well with the police... Good opportunity to test just how far the doctrine covers, maybe?

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