Case less Ammo vs. Conventional Ammo

**iar1** · 16 Jan 09, 20:11

Can case less ammo replace the conventional ammo in the near future? As of now case less ammo seems to have a lot of problems and are not much popular.

**toemag** · 16 Jan 09, 21:01

I was talking to a German Army Officer just last week about the H&K G11, and the caseless ammo thing.

The German Army ordered the G11 prior to the German re-unification, The busy bee's at H&K tooled up for mass production, ordered all the raw materials and, the Government withdrew their order as they had just inherited a few AK's from NVA. The result was H&K nearly went bankrupt, but were bought out by ???, who couldn't have the G11 as the German Govt. had paid the R&D. Then about a decade or so ago, as ??? was going down the tube's a Few H&K employees were able to raise enough money to buy the company back.

He was telling me that one of his Professors has a G11

, and he and the other students got to play with it, the thing that he made a point about was that the G11 is not a Squaddie gun, far to complicated for the fodder to understand, never mind have as a personal weapon. He also mentioned that there were a few problems with the ammo, being prone to cook off at far lower temps than regular ammo.

I personally have used the G36, and like it , not a lot, but I like it. The G3 I liked loads, What you have to ask yourself is why did the German Armed forces go with the G36 when the G11 was a viable alternative?

Tony

**Blue** · 17 Jan 09, 03:48

I wonder if you would be able to load your own cartridge? I would like the idea of no brass to pick up or steel casings laying around. I won't sacrifice reliability, accuracy, or economy for that though.

**~~GraniteForge~~** · 17 Jan 09, 04:48

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

I wonder if you would be able to load your own cartridge? I would like the idea of no brass to pick up or steel casings laying around. I won't sacrifice reliability, accuracy, or economy for that though.

Doubtful. You would need the ability to work with and form the powder block, which would be a demanding and exacting process. You might have to work it wet, then form and dry it properly, or perhaps form it from some sort of powder-and-adhesive combination, or maybe form it under pressure in a mold. And, of course, you would need to properly insert the primer and projectile. Remember that the G11 used non-standard powder, to reduce cookoffs. I think that the necessary QC would make it a dicey prospect for home manufacture.

The other form of caseless ammo you see is electrically fired. That ammo is a lot more stable, and less prone to cookoffs, but its also expensive and would also be difficult to make at home. It has been used in some handguns, and a bolt-action hunting rifle. I ran across maybe a thousand rounds of the hunting ammo at an auction a few years back, and most bidders had no idea what it was. Of course, most electrically fired ammo is used in automatic cannon.

**Blue** · 17 Jan 09, 05:06

I think we'll get phasers before they caseless right.

**~~GraniteForge~~** · 17 Jan 09, 05:27

Originally Posted by 7thsfsniper

I think we'll get phasers before they caseless right.

**Shiny Capstar** · 17 Jan 09, 14:33

Originally Posted by toemag

I personally have used the G36, and like it , not a lot, but I like it. The G3 I liked loads, What you have to ask yourself is why did the German Armed forces go with the G36 when the G11 was a viable alternative?

I never saw what all the fuss was about with the G36, its good but its not the super weapon a lot of people seem to see it as.

**toemag** · 17 Jan 09, 15:43

Originally Posted by Shiny Capstar

I never saw what all the fuss was about with the G36, its good but its not the super weapon a lot of people seem to see it as.

Hence my comment, we have a guy at my shooting club who has turned his SL8 into a G36 clone, must have paid a fortune, and it still shoots less accurate than an AR.

Tony

**iar1** · 17 Jan 09, 23:32

Originally Posted by toemag

What you have to ask yourself is why did the German Armed forces go with the G36 when the G11 was a viable alternative?

Tony

Wasn't it due to the design of the rifle? G11 was designed as a bullpup, a type of gun which doesn't have too many supporters (Steyr AUG is an exception), and G36 is a conventional rifle.
Couldn't they have used G36 with case less ammo?

**iar1** · 17 Jan 09, 23:33

Originally Posted by GraniteForge

The other form of caseless ammo you see is electrically fired. That ammo is a lot more stable, and less prone to cookoffs, but its also expensive and would also be difficult to make at home. It has been used in some handguns, and a bolt-action hunting rifle. I ran across maybe a thousand rounds of the hunting ammo at an auction a few years back, and most bidders had no idea what it was. Of course, most electrically fired ammo is used in automatic cannon.

I believe an Australian company is working on such kind of ammo. As of now such ignition system is only being used for grenade launchers, and development of similar technology for assault rifles is still in the nascent stage.

**toemag** · 18 Jan 09, 05:45

Originally Posted by iar1

Wasn't it due to the design of the rifle? G11 was designed as a bullpup, a type of gun which doesn't have too many supporters (Steyr AUG is an exception), and G36 is a conventional rifle.
Couldn't they have used G36 with case less ammo?

Oh dear, the English and the French wouldn't like to hear that, or all those countries that have adopted the Steyr.

Snipe, As to making your own ammo, if I remember rightly, that wasn't a doable thing as the mags came preloaded.

Tony

**Blue** · 18 Jan 09, 06:57

Originally Posted by toemag

Snipe, As to making your own ammo, if I remember rightly, that wasn't a doable thing as the mags came preloaded.

Tony

Well thats just darn lazy!! Next thing it'll come with someone to shoot it for me.

:P

Pre-loaded mags, whats next, valet tank parking?:P

**usgn** · 19 Jan 09, 05:17

Originally Posted by iar1

I believe an Australian company is working on such kind of ammo. As of now such ignition system is only being used for grenade launchers, and development of similar technology for assault rifles is still in the nascent stage.

Refering to 'Metal Storm"?

**iar1** · 19 Jan 09, 06:13

Originally Posted by usgn

Refering to 'Metal Storm"?

Yeah! Thats the one. They have described there technology here:

http://www.metalstorm.com/content/view/64/109/

**usgn** · 19 Jan 09, 06:31

Originally Posted by iar1

Yeah! Thats the one. They have described there technology here:

http://www.metalstorm.com/content/view/64/109/

Last heard they were working with ST Kinetics(Singapore) on metal storm 40mm munitions and some under barrel 40mm weapon system.

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