T_igger_cs_30

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tankie

who didnt ?

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TANKIE , WITHOUT WAX

T_igger_cs_30

tankie

Thats the truth , but he did have a knapsack and the HEAD who ordered the action ( BLAIR ) should roll

JamesCash

In the Netherlands no one is allowed to have guns except for hunters and sports shooters. The fact that not every random offender carries a gun means that our police does not need to feel obliged to use (pre-emptive) violence.

I can imagine that the fact that everyone could carry a gun creates a violent environment/atmosphere where some may be more obliged to resort to violence sooner.

Nevertheless I will be heading over to California this summer and I won't feel any less safe then I would here.

Stan187

It actually makes for a safer environment if everyone has equal capabilties. If everyone has guns on them for sure, you'll think twice about robbing anyone at all.

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T_igger_cs_30

Stan187

I gotta tell ya, I've yet to see any examples of the expert accuracy of experienced gang bangers.

As capable as an SOF vet? Probably not. But it is not necesarry to be very accurate in most self-defense ranges and scenarios. In fact, it is not necesarry to fire in a lot of them, most people minues the fearless gang banger will usually be compelled to cut their losses when faced with a firearm.

Most times, carrying concealed requires a class before getting your permit, and while minimal, it does teach some useful skills, as well as laws and situation where you know how you can react to different kinds of threats. What I find from circumstancial experience however, is that when people get their concealed permit, they start going to the range and to courses and various things more often.

omon

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Jefferson`s "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776

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omon

sadest thing is, i agree with you on this one.

edit, I gotta tell ya, I've yet to see any examples of the expert accuracy of experienced gang bangers well, it doesn,t mean much does it??

Attached Files

ncis_gangs[1].pdf (318.6 KB, 6 views)

GraniteForge

I think it would be great if one criminal were confronted by a whole bunch of honest, armed citizens. Criminals would quickly get the idea that this is not a good place to practice their trade. But, that is not likely to happen. I get similar questions a lot from students, and I tell them what happens when this type of situation happens for real. Let me add that where I live its easy and inexpensive to get a concealed carry license, and no training is required, or, you can just carry openly without any license at all. Bars are not off-limits.

Early last year in the city where I live, a couple of sketchy characters were tossed out of a bar. Being typical criminals, one of them came back to the bar and opened fire on the bouncers, with a .45 fortunately not hitting anyone at close range. One bar patron drew his own gun (legally owned and carried .380), and fired three shots, two of which struck the bad guy shooter. He dropped his gun, and the two criminals ran away, leaving a trail of blood. They were caught and arrested. Both are wanted fugitives, both in the country illegally, and their gun was stolen. The good guy was cleared of any wrongdoing in less than a day. His gun was temporarily held as evidence, but some people took up a collection and bought him a new, better pistol later that week. The person that returned fire was not the only lawfully armed patron in the bar that night; there were at least two others.

But, not everyone feels the urge to charge into the middle of every situation just because they are armed. That is more the job of LEOs. The job of armed, non-sworn private citizens is to defend themselves and those they are lawfully empowered to protect (i.e. family), and to be a good witness should their testimony be necessary.

Here is one of my stories: A few years ago, I was driving down the street in winter, and noticed two guys jawing with each other on the side of the street, between two cars that were parked to the side of the driving lane, probably having some sort of traffic disagreement. Suddenly, the short guy reached up and whacked the tall guy on the head with a tire iron. I pulled over and parked and observed. Some other passers-by grabbed both men and pulled them apart, held them, while I wrote down their license plates and descriptions. The police arrived and did a very professional job of investigation, then took the short guy into custody, while the tall guy was loaded into an ambulance. Most witnesses had drifted away by then, but I stayed until I could approach an officer and offer what I saw and recorded. The point is, I was armed and could have intervened (and I might have were the assault more serious), but I did not, as I am not a LEO.

Just two recent, real-world instances from the same city of bad guys using deadly force, witnessed by armed citizens, where there was no firefight and the police had no trouble handling it.

JamesCash

Well, the way I see it, there will always be criminality in modern western society. I guesstimate that in the Netherlands, 99% of the unlawful gun owners are not intending to use their gun against you, me or any other lawabiding citizen.

Whereas the gunlaws in America do not only allow your random propertycriminal/scumbags/deprived teenagers relatively easy acces to firearms. It also makes them more likely to buy guns as they too want to defend themselves against all the guns privately owned. I think this is a sort of vicious circle as the more power the normal people have, the more power the criminals want to have. This power is way over the lethal threshold with firearms.

I'm probably oversimplifying.

Stan187

Nor should everyone feel compelled to always intervene. You don't always know who started what. What might look like a guy being shot when he's unarmed might also look like someone protecting themselves with their firearm after getting wailed on if you'd only been there to see the whole thing from the start.

Then again, when you can tell what is going on clearly, it's a different story. About five years ago, a local smaller town 20 miles north of me, a bank robber ran out of the bank with a bag of cash, and a patron ran after him, armed with his concealed pistol. The bank robber was shot dead a few minutes later, and after a police investigation, the patron was not charged and only received letters of thanks from other patrons and the bank manager.

T_igger_cs_30

omon

^^ does he need to show negative examples?
media got that covered pretty much.