An anti 5.56mm article...

**sw55** · 09 Mar 05,, 02:17

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

"Dad retired in '87 so he used the A2 also. I won't begin to argue with you on long range shooting and ballistics since I don't have the creds, but I was referring to the effect of the bullet on flesh at 600+ yards. ARs are used heavily in NRA long range shooting with good result, but from what i've read and seen, it just doesn't seem like a hit from a 5.56 at that range will have the desired effect (ie dead target). Please correct me if i'm wrong on this."

That depends what you hit.

Hit the spinal column, cranial cavity, or heart, the bad guy will die sure as the sun rises.

But as a general rule, yes, long range engagements are not what the .223 is best at. Beyond about 500 meters the 62gr projectile of the M855 round starts to really lose it's punch.(of course if your target is 500 meters away it's no big deal if he lays there bleeding for a while before he dies).

However, even at 1000 meters the .223 NATO round has more energy than a .380 ACP at the muzzle.

PS: I joined the same year dad got out.

I have a copy of the Russian answer to the 5.56, in civilian semi-auto version of the AK-74, the Romanian SAR-2 which fires the 5.45 round which is very similar in ballistics (60 grain bullet, a little slower at about 2900 fps). I also have the 7.62 in a SAR-1, and a Mini-30 (deer rifle). Much more kick, and I would suppose any full auto would be impossible to keep on target. More joules of energy and take down power, but the idea was the smaller round could be carried in quantity, and even if you don't kill on the single round hit on the battlefield, you do more dammage because you not only "mission kill" who you were aiming at, but you also drain reasources and further "mission kill" for the other side to save his life, as opposed to a dead soldier ignored by his avenging comrades.

**Bill** · 09 Mar 05,, 07:33

There's been a lot of ongoing debate over the design of various assault weapon cartridges over the years.

A lot of people have advanced the 'wounding is better theory', and it does have some merit.

However, i for my part definitely preferred a weapon that would kill with the highest possible % chance.

Such a weapon exists.

It's called a radio.

**sw55** · 09 Mar 05,, 12:54

Is that to call in the airstrike?
A sat phone, with a laser rangefinder/gps combination would give exact Lat/Long coordinates for anything from a precision guided weapon of many types, all the way up to ICBM thermonuclear strike.... but the targeting phone caller would not live through the latter possibility I suppose.
Isn't the XM-8 new rifle that is going to replace the M-16 possibly going to have a somewhat larger round (smaller than 7.62 Soviet though)? What is the status of that, and the likelyhood that a larger round will be adopted?

**lemontree** · 09 Mar 05,, 13:19

Originally Posted by sw55

Is that to call in the airstrike?

That too...or arty fire.

**Bill** · 09 Mar 05,, 13:28

The new round is the 6.8mm(i think the case is 41mm in length IIRC).

It is an improvement over the 5.56, but it strikes me as odd that someone felt a need to invent a new cartridge when there are so many suitible existing cartridges that would do the job at least as well.

I highly doubt the new round will be adopted though. It's a long shot.

"That too...or arty fire."

Particularly arty. Much faster than TACAIR, and more readily available.

And if you ask me, more effective.

**Officer of Engineers** · 09 Mar 05,, 13:31

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Particularly arty. Much faster than TACAIR, and more readily available.

And if you ask me, more effective.

Hear! Hear! Bravo! Well said! Well said!

**Bill** · 09 Mar 05,, 13:36

The flyboys get all the press, but the Arty does almost all the killing.

**sw55** · 09 Mar 05,, 17:57

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The flyboys get all the press, but the Arty does almost all the killing.

I think on friday night at 8:00pm on The Military Channel there will be a special on artillery, modern stuff too. If you have Direct TV you can get The Military Channel, but I am not sure about cable.

**Bill** · 09 Mar 05,, 19:15

Channel 195 on my satellite dish.

**leib10** · 27 Mar 05,, 17:28

Originally Posted by griftadan

yeah, in vietnam, the average amount of ammunition expended to enemy killed is like 10,000:1 or something crazy like that. i dont know if this pertains to just infatry, but that still reveals the wasteful spray-and-pray tactics used by many soldiers during the conflict. i dont know what the numbers are today for the iraq wars, but if we gave each of our soldiers 120 7.62mm rounds, those numbers owuld drop

Try 50,000-200,000:1. The worst idea ever was to give American soldiers, who do not have a tradition of conserving ammunition, a fully automatic and controllable weapon that encourages the prodigious use of ammo. I'm glad they deleted the full auto option on the M16-A2.