Petition Against Proposed US Automatic Weapons Ban! - Page 4

Stan · 11-20-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

And not one of those nations have as big a population or as racially mixed.

Your statistics is misleading in that it only cites firearm related deaths. It does not site overall crime rate or homicide.

It also includes suicides to inflate the number. A determined suicider (is there such a word?) will find other ways to kill himself. Japan has a high suicide rate. They don't use firearms. They take pills or jump off high buildings, which we don't have as many per capita.

You don't like our guns and we don't like your nanny government. We're macho dumbasses and you're sissy sheeps. I'd rather be a dumbass than a sissy. You are welcome to be a sheep.

You arguement has boiled down to calling me names?

Some more detailed stats for you including suicide with guns and more up to date numbers.

Gun deaths per 100,000 population so population total is not relevant (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Canada (2002) 0.4 0.2 0.04
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

And your right suicide does account for a large amount of the gun related deaths, but look at your homocide rate compared to the rest of us. Doenst that make you think?

In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80deaths every day.

If we look at percentage wise and remove suicides from that number
say roughly 58%
We are stil left with around 11600 deaths per year or more based on homicide or accidents.

In the UK in 2000 we had 70 Homocide by gun

Now one of your arguements is size of country = well ok

UK 60 million people
USA 300 million

Lets multiply our numbers by 5 to get a better idea?

70 x 5 = 350 deaths.

Another of your arguements is Ethnic deversity

USA
White 73.9%
African American 12.4%
Asian 4.4%
Native American and Alaskan Native 0.8%
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander 0.1%
Other/multiracial 8.3%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 14.8%

UK
White 92%
Black African
Black Carribean
Black other - all 3 total 2%

Asian groups make up 4%
Other groups make up the further 2%

I will conceed you have a more ethnically diverse country, but thats about the only thing you argued that made any sense. Although Im not sure if your saying different ethnic groups are more likely to kill with a gun.

And just so you know, im active politically and if something is wrong ill say its wrong. I dont need a gun to back up my reasonable arguement though, and if you do maybe your not being reasonable?

captain · 11-20-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

You dont think in the UK we have people running around with guns? I dont own a gun and I live in London.

Yes there are people running around with guns Stan.
Your crime stats are available from your Home Office I think.
You don't own a gun. Good for you!

Quote:

I dont feel unsafe and I dont feel the need to carry a pistol.

If the media is even half correct, there are places in London even the Police are afraid to go but again, good for you.

Quote:

Your arguement about self protection is a figment of your imagination and the NRA's.

Tell that to the people who have been confronted by some idiot who wants to beat you to death, stab you or shoot you.
Tell it to an armed police officer.

Quote:

Gun ownership is the right of the state and no one else.

Yep, there have been a number of lunatics throughout history who have thought that way and managed to wreak miserable tyranny on the civillian populations.
Do the names Hitler, Stalin or Mao mean anything to you.
Let me give you a hint.
In order to subjegate a population, three things must happen.
1) disenfranchise the population.
2) disenpower the population.
3) disarm the population.

Then you can do whatever you damn well like cant you?
If you think that was all history and not relevant now, have a look around the world and realise human nature has not and will never change.

Quote:

I also acknowledge that getting rid of all guns does not include the criminals, but getting rid of the vast majority of weapons will help. Hell not selling ammunition will help.

Absolute rubbish! A rubbish comment and rubbish in fact!

Quote:

Criminals will find a away of getting guns but thats how it is in europe,

I take it by your first sentence that Brittain is not European then.!!

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you look at our gun related murders/robberies/fatalities and you then look at yours and you tell me if we have the stupid gun control laws?

Yes you do have "stupid" laws Stan because thay have not made one iota of quantifiable difference, therefore what was the point.
Perhaps they are worse than stupid.

Quote:

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994:
United States 14.24;
Brazil 12.95;
Mexico 12.69;
Finland 6.46;
France 5.15;
Canada 4.31;
Australia 2.65;
New Zealand 2.38;
Germany 1.24;
Republic of Ireland 0.97;
Scotland 0.54;
England and Wales 0.41;
Japan 0.05

What has being wealthy got to do with it and where exactly did you source this chart from or is that a little too obvious and we should all know.

Quote:

Do you want me to point out the countries with tough gun control laws?

No need to Stan as I have already alluded to three of them above where murder rates where off the planet and not only by the state.
Murder and even suicide are symptoms of a society that has lost their freedom and ability to to have hope.

To be fair Stan you should also inlude Switzerland in your evidence?

Stan, I have to advise you that you are suffering from an illness called Hoplophobia.
It is quite serious and debilitating but even more dangerous to those whom you may influence.

We have a number of those sufferers here in Australia as well and the most notable one is our Prime Minister but at least he recognises it and admits it.

A few years after the "buy back/ compulsory confiscation" of private firearms, Howard admitted that it had nothing to do with making society safer and that the government was well aware that the crims were never going to hand theirs up.
It had the added effect of creating a huge population of new criminals by legislation.
These were previously law abiding, decent people but also people who quite rightly had the basic intelligence to understand what was going on and a healthy distrust of government.
These are the people who refused to hand up their firearms that had not previosly been required to be registered.
There are tens of thousands of them and guess what, they aren't all of a sudden committing violent crime but they have joined the ranks of the disenfranchised..

In Australia we have a government body called the Autralian Institute of Criminology and even though it is a govt body it has presented a number of Papers on the subject that are detailed and critical.
If you are at all serious, I sugest you have a read of this paper.

This paper was done by two of the best and most credible researchers in the country.

http://aic.gov.au/conferences/2004/baker.pdf

Stan · 11-20-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captain

Yes there are people running around with guns Stan.
Your crime stats are available from your Home Office I think.
You don't own a gun. Good for you!

If the media is even half correct, there are places in London even the Police are afraid to go but again, good for you.

Tell that to the people who have been confronted by some idiot who wants to beat you to death, stab you or shoot you.
Tell it to an armed police officer.

Yep, there have been a number of lunatics throughout history who have thought that way and managed to wreak miserable tyranny on the civillian populations.
Do the names Hitler, Stalin or Mao mean anything to you.
Let me give you a hint.
In order to subjegate a population, three things must happen.
1) disenfranchise the population.
2) disenpower the population.
3) disarm the population.

Then you can do whatever you damn well like cant you?
If you think that was all history and not relevant now, have a look around the world and realise human nature has not and will never change.

Absolute rubbish! A rubbish comment and rubbish in fact!

I take it by your first sentence that Brittain is not European then.!!

Yes you do have "stupid" laws Stan because thay have not made one iota of quantifiable difference, therefore what was the point.
Perhaps they are worse than stupid.

What has being wealthy got to do with it and where exactly did you source this chart from or is that a little too obvious and we should all know.

No need to Stan as I have already alluded to three of them above where murder rates where off the planet and not only by the state.
Murder and even suicide are symptoms of a society that has lost their freedom and ability to to have hope.

To be fair Stan you should also inlude Switzerland in your evidence?

Stan, I have to advise you that you are suffering from an illness called Hoplophobia.
It is quite serious and debilitating but even more dangerous to those whom you may influence.

We have a number of those sufferers here in Australia as well and the most notable one is our Prime Minister but at least he recognises it and admits it.

A few years after the "buy back/ compulsory confiscation" of private firearms, Howard admitted that it had nothing to do with making society safer and that the government was well aware that the crims were never going to hand theirs up.
It had the added effect of creating a huge population of new criminals by legislation.
These were previously law abiding, decent people but also people who quite rightly had the basic intelligence to understand what was going on and a healthy distrust of government.
These are the people who refused to hand up their firearms that had not previosly been required to be registered.
There are tens of thousands of them and guess what, they aren't all of a sudden committing violent crime but they have joined the ranks of the disenfranchised..

In Australia we have a government body called the Autralian Institute of Criminology and even though it is a govt body it has presented a number of Papers on the subject that are detailed and critical.
If you are at all serious, I sugest you have a read of this paper.

This paper was done by two of the best and most credible researchers in the country.

http://aic.gov.au/conferences/2004/baker.pdf

Im sorry captain. you brought nothing to counter my arguements but irrational omg your stupid comments? Is that what you arguement came down to?

Your right, in fact that in cases where governments/ dictators have wished to take complete control they have limited the access to guns. Having not lived in the time of place where that has happened, i could not comment on if the would happen again in Germany.

In the UK we had the majority of the country saying we dont want guns to be available to people namely hand guns yes. They did this by voting in Labour who made it one of their election points in 1997.

I do not fear my government, I know there are sufficient safe guards in place.

Lets get back to your counter arguements because you did make a few that were undestanable in your rant.

You asked firstly i think why it mattered if they were rich or not. Well captain im only considering countries that have developed industrially and socially to be modern first world nations.

Bratain is part of europe im not sure why we are talking about that. But with the free movement of people through borders and such it has made the movement of guns from new countries joining the EU much easier. It is something the police are working hard to stop.

"Yes you do have "stupid" laws Stan because thay have not made one iota of quantifiable difference, therefore what was the point.
Perhaps they are worse than stupid".

I found this bit amusing, are you gonna use some stats to back this up. when ive made a counter arguement to other people I back it up, your waving your arms around shouting i havent a clue lets start brining facts to the table.

Murder and even suicide are symptoms of a society that has lost their freedom and ability to to have hope.

so the USA with high counts of suicide and murder even with its liberal gun laws and the home of the brave has lost all hope and freedom? I am a subject of the British Crown and I have freedom and hope.

Suicide is a sympton of an individuals loss of hope, not the state they live in.

I could use switzerland as an example but as almost all males are part of the state defence force they actually have a reason to bear arms, they are a moments call from active duty, sure not much point in it but their laws require it. USA doesnt.

You then go on to state im suffering from Hoplophobia.
A fear of weapons, well no I dont fear weapons. I do not understand some peoples belief they are a necessaty in order to live a safe and happy life. Or the need to kill something for sport for that matter.

Thank you for the link to the paper I have printed it off and shall enjoy the read. As i always mention i welcome all peoples views and enjoy healthy debate.

I will come back with more stats, but i did enjoy your comment about the change in Law in Australia creating a new wave of criminals by default.
I understand if people have distrust in their government, but they have every oppurtunity to change things through the power of vote and the power of discussion.

At the end of the day decisions are made by those that turn up and if you live in a country where the majority of people dont want people to own guns then you either accept that of you leave. or you go to jail.

I dont understand the US and their love of guns but from recent stats its a very decisive subject. But as long as people are still discussing it and still making pessionate defences of their view point I will sleep happy knowing democracy is at work.

The UK made its decision.

Shamus · 11-20-2007, 10:28 AM

Nice post Captain and thanks for the link

.

Stan · 11-20-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamus

Nice post Captain and thanks for the link

.

I think we can work out which side of the fence your sitting on

Shamus · 11-20-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

I think we can work out which side of the fence your sitting on

Stan,I'm across the field and somewhere off in the woods on this

.

Stan · 11-20-2007, 10:54 AM

thats fair enough buddy.

You doing a weekend in the militia this weekend? I was thinking about bringin a few brits over, since your armed forces are lacking we will have to face up to you guys.

Shamus · 11-20-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

thats fair enough buddy.

You doing a weekend in the militia this weekend? I was thinking about bringin a few brits over, since your armed forces are lacking we will have to face up to you guys.

Naw,Thanksgiving and all....Commander gave us the weekend off

.

Stan · 11-20-2007, 10:59 AM

you know what, im going to my first thanks giving this thursday. We have some yanky friends here in London and I offered to bring something,. So tomorrow night I shall take a stab at making my very first pumpkin pie

Shamus · 11-20-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

you know what, im going to my first thanks giving this thursday. We have some yanky friends here in London and I offered to bring something,. So tomorrow night I shall take a stab at making my very first pumpkin pie

Awesome!Don't forget the whipped cream.....pumpkin pie...my favorite Thanksgiving food...unless it's stuffing or green bean casserole or turkey leg or home-made mashed potatoes....uhh...you get the idea

.

omon · 11-20-2007, 11:05 AM

well stan, you have right for your opinion, whatever it is. i personaly don,t find any sence in it. neither i see any point to argue. to each its own.

Shamus · 11-20-2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omon

well stan, you have right for your opinion, whatever it is. i personaly don,t find any sence in it. neither i see any point to argue. to each its own.

Well said...I think I'm gonna start a thread about "Your Favorite Thanksgiving Food"

Stan · 11-20-2007, 11:12 AM

I know my opinion doesnt hold much weight with the chaps in the states but I will when given the chance put a full defence up of my opinions and try to reason them.

I second the thread about thanksgiving food but i would like you to open it up to christmas as well as most of us dont celebrate thanksgiving,,,, but alot of cross over food.

Btw shortage of turkeys over here this thursday night turkey was 110$

Shamus · 11-20-2007, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

I know my opinion doesnt hold much weight with the chaps in the states but I will when given the chance put a full defence up of my opinions and try to reason them.

I second the thread about thanksgiving food but i would like you to open it up to christmas as well as most of us dont celebrate thanksgiving,,,, but alot of cross over food.

Btw shortage of turkeys over here this thursday night turkey was 110$

$110?......

gunnut · 11-20-2007, 18:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

You arguement has boiled down to calling me names?

I didn't call you anything. I said you are "welcome to be a sheep" if you want to. I did not specifically call you sheep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

Some more detailed stats for you including suicide with guns and more up to date numbers.

Gun deaths per 100,000 population so population total is not relevant (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Canada (2002) 0.4 0.2 0.04
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

Thank you for including a more detailed look at our gun deaths and crime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

And your right suicide does account for a large amount not just a large amount, THE biggest block of the gun related deaths, but look at your homocide rate compared to the rest of us. Doenst that make you think?

Your data shows homicide committed by firearms. It does not say homicide overall or even crime overall. We have the most guns in the hands of citizens out of all industrialized nations, naturally we will have higher death rate and crime rate involving guns. That I don't deny.

But look at the other side of the data, Japan, which to my understanding, permits zero firearms in the hands of citizens, has a 0.02 homicide rate, how does that work? Zero should mean zero. So banning guns isn't really the answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

In 1999, there were 28,874 gun-related deaths in the United States - over 80 deaths every day.

So? What are the deaths caused by other means? Car crash? Drunk driving? Stabbing? Heart attack? Dare I say, illegals?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

If we look at percentage wise and remove suicides from that number
say roughly 58%
We are stil left with around 11600 deaths per year or more based on homicide or accidents.

So? Removing guns just means homicide will be committed by other means. Remember Rwanda? Nearly 1 million people dead, most by machetes, and they had guns. Gun related deaths during the Rwanda massacre was relatively low and people should feel safer than being in the USA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

In the UK in 2000 we had 70 Homocide by gun

Good for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

Now one of your arguements is size of country = well ok

UK 60 million people
USA 300 million

Lets multiply our numbers by 5 to get a better idea?

70 x 5 = 350 deaths.

You still did not count the overall crime rate. People will commit crimes. Removing guns means they'll use some other instrument of death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

Another of your arguements is Ethnic deversity

USA
White 73.9%
African American 12.4%
Asian 4.4%
Native American and Alaskan Native 0.8%
Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander 0.1%
Other/multiracial 8.3%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race) 14.8%

UK
White 92%
Black African
Black Carribean
Black other - all 3 total 2%

Asian groups make up 4%
Other groups make up the further 2%

I will conceed you have a more ethnically diverse country, but thats about the only thing you argued that made any sense. Although Im not sure if your saying different ethnic groups are more likely to kill with a gun.

I'm not saying minorities are more likely to kill people or commit crimes. My point is that when you mix a large number of people with different cultural and religious background together, some of them newly arrived immigrants or even illegals, things will happen. Most of these immigrants and illegals are poor and sometimes desperate. Especially with the Mexican situation, don't mean to be racist here, they have an easy out if they commit a crime here. They can hop the fence and our law can't touch them.

No other industrialized nation has as many immigrants and illegals as the US.

No other industrialized nation shares a large border with a developing nation with huge poverty rate as the US is with Mexico.

No other industrialized nation has as many guns in the hands of citizens as the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan

And just so you know, im active politically and if something is wrong ill say its wrong. I dont need a gun to back up my reasonable arguement though, and if you do maybe your not being reasonable?

I don't need a gun to back me up on any argument. I need facts and statistics.

Instead of looking at our gun related deaths and say how horrible it is, you should look at our gun related deaths relative to the number of people who have guns and the number of guns in circulation. If you look at it that way, you'll realize just how safe and responsible we are.

I own more than 10 guns (I purposely stopped counting). I have not killed a single man, or even a single living creature with any one of my guns. There are millions, maybe up to 50 million legal gun owners in this country. Most of them are like me. They are either collectors or outdoorsman or inherited their guns from relatives. Why should we give up what is our right specified in our founding document just because some dirtbag abuse it?

11-20-2007, 10:28 AM	#49 (permalink)
Shamus WAB Court Jester *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 04-12-07 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,324 Country:	Nice post Captain and thanks for the link . __________________ A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

11-20-2007, 11:05 AM	#56 (permalink)
omon Field mechanik *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-01-06 Location: bk Posts: 2,058 Country:	well stan, you have right for your opinion, whatever it is. i personaly don,t find any sence in it. neither i see any point to argue. to each its own. __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" B. Franklin

11-20-2007, 10:54 AM	#52 (permalink)
Stan Contributor Join Date: 07-11-06 Posts: 436 Country:	thats fair enough buddy. You doing a weekend in the militia this weekend? I was thinking about bringin a few brits over, since your armed forces are lacking we will have to face up to you guys.

11-20-2007, 10:59 AM	#54 (permalink)
Stan Contributor Join Date: 07-11-06 Posts: 436 Country:	you know what, im going to my first thanks giving this thursday. We have some yanky friends here in London and I offered to bring something,. So tomorrow night I shall take a stab at making my very first pumpkin pie

11-20-2007, 11:12 AM	#58 (permalink)
Stan Contributor Join Date: 07-11-06 Posts: 436 Country:	I know my opinion doesnt hold much weight with the chaps in the states but I will when given the chance put a full defence up of my opinions and try to reason them. I second the thread about thanksgiving food but i would like you to open it up to christmas as well as most of us dont celebrate thanksgiving,,,, but alot of cross over food. Btw shortage of turkeys over here this thursday night turkey was 110$

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