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UN dysfunctional, troops cowards, Gen Dallaire says in new book

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  • #31
    "In 1971, I went through a minefield about 1000m long with a comapny plus one platoon"

    Ray could you tell us about the circumstances under which you had to cross the minefield? Im sure there were logistical or tactical reasons why the minefield was not cleared. It might help put things in perspective if the situation your unit was in then is known. Was this in the Eastern or the Western sector? The Eastern sector (then East Pakistan, now Bangladesh) saw one of the quickest military campaigns in history, drawing comparisons with the blitzkrieg. And this was across terrain that is a lot tougher than France, crisscrossed with rivers and other natural obstacles.
    Memento Mori

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Leader
      hmmm....that's interesting. By that statement the Communist Revolution in Russia should never have happened because it caused a civil war, but the over through of communism in 1991 should have happened because it caused no civil war.
      Re-check your sources.
      Ever heard of:
      Nagorno Karabakh?
      Kutaisi?
      Chinvali?
      Prednistrovye?
      Chechnya?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by M21Sniper
        If i mention the name Noriega to anyone under the age of 25 they think i am referring to the gangsta rapper.
        :LOL

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        • #34
          I believe, the general has made a controversial but a correct decision.
          I read that in 1945, when Rokossovky's troops engaged a crack SS division on the outskirts of Berlin, they started pushing them back. But the SS pinned down 2 reginments of Soviet infantry with artillery and mortar fire and themselves pulled back through pre-planned routes across a minefield.
          Once the German artillery and mortar positions have been destroyed by counterfire, the Soviet Polkovnik (Colonel) ordered his reginment to chase after the SS troops.
          So they charged across a minefield, suffering heavy casualities, but have caught the SS troops offguard, and destroyed them.
          If the engineers would have been called in to de-mine the field, it would have given the SS valuable time to prepare and occupy defensive positions in the suburbs of Berlin. The Soviet reginment would have suffered heavier casualities as a result.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by s_qwert63
            If the engineers would have been called in to de-mine the field, it would have given the SS valuable time to prepare and occupy defensive positions in the suburbs of Berlin. The Soviet reginment would have suffered heavier casualities as a result.
            Well, there are several issues here.

            I was not there in WWII nor with the General in 71, therefore, I am not qualified to comment on these actions. It was a gut reaction to the way I was trained and expect armies to perform. I was flabbergasted (and still am). Yes, there are times that a minefield must be charged but this should be done by engineers (at least according to NATO doctrine) or at the very least pathfinders/assualt pioneers. We're different than infantry when we do charge in that we look not just to get ourselves across but which paths the follow on force must take.

            The General may not have engineers on hand or as he stated that by the time they move forward, the balance of forces may have changed.

            The fact that his coy(+) (re-enforced company) went through unscathed tells me that this was a hasty laid minefield. A deliberate one would entice for more casualties if only because it is being watched. Minefields by themselves are not show stoppers. Minefields back up by fire are show stoppers.

            Regarding the GPW, the Soviets were great believers in recee-by-fire. I am quite sure that that minefield would have been met with a general bombardment. Doesn't always work. Mines tends to get tossed around and buried by such actions.

            Fast forward to today. Engineers do not initially clear minefields. They breach them which is a whole different concept. We've got to get an initial follow on force to the other side of the minefield to push the enemy out of their positions. I've arleady laid out the procedure in the T-80 vs M1 thread.

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            • #36
              It was 9 miles inside Pak Occupied Kashmir where I had to raid a military established. The minefield on the Line of Control are not hasty but delibeate and very deep.

              Having raided { I was burnt and was limping back} we had to return FAST between the Pak post which were on either side on the ridgelines going into India. I didn't want the boys to get daylighted. I was limping and so I told them to follow the stream and go up. I had clean forgotten the minefields because I was in pain. One boy refused to leave me. We all got caught in an enemy Mortar DF. The boulders in the stream saved us. Then the men took a path leading up and there after we lost contact, the sun was coming up. They moved through the minefield and later so did I with the boy with me. The I realised that we were going through the minefield! It was too late and anyway I couldn't go trying to find the minesafe lane as the sun was coming up and the enemy could have aimed pot shots. I crossed. Then, I checked the men at the post when we reached it. God was on my side. None were injured.

              What could be the cause of not a casualty? The mines drift in the mountains. Or forest fires could have blasted the mines. Heaven knows what. The bottomline is that we are OK.

              God? Fate? Luck?

              I would still go through again if I were in an attack since you are a dead duck if you dilly dally in a minefield. The psyche is that the minefield will get you; and unless you go through fast, the enemy bullet will get you. Catch 22. I rather kill the enemy first rather than die in a minefied not because of a mine but because of an enemy bullet. Remember Colonel that minefield are also laid to delay? This delay allows good aimed firing by those in the defence!
              Last edited by Ray; 13 Nov 03,, 04:49.


              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

              HAKUNA MATATA

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              • #37
                Sir,

                If we ever do meet up, please allow me the honour of buying you a drink, at the very least, a cup of coffee.

                My thanks for providing the details. Shows that there is also a gap in thinking between infantry and engineers.

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                • #38
                  Colonel,

                  Our pension is peanuts. I can never come. Why don't you come over and be my guest. You can have coffee or even drinks and I eat all types of meat. Our Chinese restaurants are superb including authentic Chinese. You wont feel out of place. It will be a great pleasure.

                  That invitation applies to ALL forum members including my Pakistanis friends.


                  "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                  I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                  HAKUNA MATATA

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