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UN dysfunctional, troops cowards, Gen Dallaire says in new book

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  • #16
    Wow, I never thought I would meet anyone who took part in the Medak pocket fight. I was doing coursework on that incident a few years ago and did some research.
    Found a lot of gruesome pictures of Canadian soldiers carrying out burnt bodies out of destroyed houses. Also found a video where one retired Canadian officer said how when they were carrying bodies out of houses they were still so hot that they burnt through the body bags.
    Also found information about Croatian army soldiers executing Serb militia suspectsin the forest.
    It is a damn shame that the UN forces could not rescue all of the people in Medac.
    Many people think that only Serbs were responsible for the ethnic cleansing, but the Croats, the Bosnians also took part in cleansing.

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    • #17
      'Ethnic cleaning' depends on which side of the scenario you are on.

      Saddam was not an ethnic cleaner till he was on the right side. He became a horror when he got too big for his boots.


      "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

      I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

      HAKUNA MATATA

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by s_qwert63
        Wow, I never thought I would meet anyone who took part in the Medak pocket fight. I was doing coursework on that incident a few years ago and did some research.
        Found a lot of gruesome pictures of Canadian soldiers carrying out burnt bodies out of destroyed houses. Also found a video where one retired Canadian officer said how when they were carrying bodies out of houses they were still so hot that they burnt through the body bags.
        Also found information about Croatian army soldiers executing Serb militia suspectsin the forest.
        It is a damn shame that the UN forces could not rescue all of the people in Medac.
        Many people think that only Serbs were responsible for the ethnic cleansing, but the Croats, the Bosnians also took part in cleansing.
        No, not pleasant memories at all. I can guess which pictures you saw. Two girls, between 16-24 who were raped and then burned. There were alot of reporters who wouldn't allow us to do that gruesome job. I screamed at them for having no shame and no respect for the dead.

        Another UN debacle here. The Croats gave their word that they would withdraw the next day. Under UN rules, we had to give them the chance to withdraw. Instead, they brought up a CIA trained coy to face us. They've used the time also to commit those attrocities.

        The Croats lined up SAGGER-Ts against our APCs. They even had a T-72 facing us. We had our FIVE-OHs trained on the SAGGER-T teams and TOW-IIs aimed at that tank. It was a Mexican stand off and I can say that we were ready and willing.

        The reporters helped us here. Col Jim Calvin called a press conference saying the Croats was trying to hide attrocities. The Croat Col immediately called a news brief of his own calling us Canadians liars and invited them over. They blinked.

        What's left unreported was that we also had to stop the Serbs from entering the pocket. We left one coy, Maj Dan Drew's "C" Coy to block them and they were not too happy not to have a chance to exact vengence.

        Comment


        • #19
          Colonel,
          Was the Yugoslav Army there?
          From what I read, a lot of Yugoslav army soldiers sided with the Serbs, while some still saw themsleves as Yugoslavs and tried to bring order. Then the whole Macedonian corps of the army deserted.

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          • #20
            The 2JA was in Yugoslavia proper. With the breakup of Yugoslavia, alot of local reserve units kept their armouries and formed their own militia groups which were augmented by mercenaries from all over the place. Alot most likely were former members of the Yugoslav Army.

            There were no actions by the Yugoslav Army itself. The 2nd Yugoslav Army stayed where they were in Yugoslavia. They were being checked by UNPROFOR, however. At least two coys at any one time kept a watch on the 2JA.

            It was a Civil War with all the ugliness it implies. It was litterally son against mother, and daughter fearing father.

            Comment


            • #21
              I gotta say Colonel, based on your descriptions, i'm glad i missed that whole mess.

              Not my kind of war at all....if there is such a thing.

              Comment


              • #22
                Interesting, Colonel. Quite different from what we gleaned from open sources.


                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                HAKUNA MATATA

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes civil wars are dirty and should never happen!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by s_qwert63
                    Yes civil wars are dirty and should never happen!
                    hmmm....that's interesting. By that statement the Communist Revolution in Russia should never have happened because it caused a civil war, but the over through of communism in 1991 should have happened because it caused no civil war.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by M21Sniper
                      I gotta say Colonel, based on your descriptions, i'm glad i missed that whole mess.

                      Not my kind of war at all....if there is such a thing.
                      So do alot of people, including me. What's frustrating is that no matter what you do, no matter what you try, you couldn't make a difference. We've won at Medac, the biggest battle the Canadians fought since the end of Korean War and that includes Op Apollo (OEF) in Afghnistan.

                      A year later, all we've done was undone by the CIA and another Canadian regiment (2nd Battalion, Royal 22nd Regiment (Van Doos)) got the shame of not preventing 700,000 Serbs being forced to flee (and freeze and starve).

                      You know the stupid thing was? I've helped the Croats. After Medac, we continued with our demining efforts. This gave them the manouver room they needed a year later at Krajina and against 2 R22eR.

                      Originally posted by Ray
                      Interesting, Colonel. Quite different from what we gleaned from open sources.
                      Sir, it never is. It never is. I'm sure your experiences do not reflect open sources. Your infantry was reported to charge minefields. No where in those sources (and I searched) did it mention that your infantry has assualt pioneer training.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Panama sure don't reflect open sources.

                        If you read the one paragraph foot note it gets(if it gets one at all) you would never know that not only were shots fired, but that we suffered casualties.

                        Hell, a whole SEAL team was decimated. That ought to give most people an idea of the kind of resistance we faced down there.

                        I just love telling people i served in the Panama Invasion and hearing them say, "When did that happen?"

                        If i mention the name Noriega to anyone under the age of 25 they think i am referring to the gangsta rapper.

                        It's pretty annoying.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          [i]



                          Sir, it never is. It never is. I'm sure your experiences do not reflect open sources. Your infantry was reported to charge minefields. No where in those sources (and I searched) did it mention that your infantry has assualt pioneer training. [/B]
                          Colonel,

                          That we have assault pioneers and the training is not a secret. The Foreign Officers including Canadian who attend our Staff College are well ware of it and its in the orgaanisation pamphlet that they are issued and they take home.


                          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                          HAKUNA MATATA

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Sir,

                            It isn't that your army has assualt pioneers nor the training that was surprising. This is normally expected of every British style army.

                            What was surprising to me and I was trying to verify was that your army was able to assemble them in several companies strength.

                            In the Canadian and British armies, we only have one assualt pioneer platoon per battalion and normally, with the exception of the light infantry battalions, our infantry doesn't receive assualt pioneer training.

                            Such massing would be required of our engineer regts. There was no mention of engineers at Kragil and thus, my confusion on how infantry was able to charge through minefields.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              The Pioneers you are talking about are those who act as 'labour' for airfield construction and other engg tasks etc.

                              In Kargil we had Engrs as well as the Pioneers.

                              Actually, going through a minefield would be a common phenomenon for the infantry or the armour. I agree there will be causalties, but then surprise is more important than any elaborate minefield clearance where by the enemy will be able to organise his reserves and change the combat ratio.

                              In 1971, I went through a minefield about 1000m long with a comapny plus one platoon. Not one was injured!
                              Last edited by Ray; 11 Nov 03,, 21:03.


                              "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                              I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                              HAKUNA MATATA

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ray
                                In 1971, I went through a minefield about 1000m long with a comapny plus one platoon. Not one was injured!
                                Sir,

                                A cold chill went down my spine.

                                With all due respects and please chalk this up to cultural differences and different thinkings between the two armies and my lack of understanding of your operational procedures but

                                WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING?!?!?!?!?!?!

                                I'm ... I'm ... I'm ... Sir, to be honest, I am completely flabbergasted!!!! I salute your bravery but at the same time, I question your sanity. Please do not take this as a sign of disrespect but that I would never tolerate such actions from my people. I don't think my generals either.

                                I'm still feeling the chill just imagining your actions.

                                I went through minefields after they were line charged and I found more than one mine that the line charges missed. I'm shivering thinking about the mines that were hidden and missed.

                                Sir, I believe that we suffer from different usage of the same terms. Assault Pioneers in the UK, Canada, and Australia are the infantry's version of engineering reconnaisance. They're called Pathfinders in the US.

                                I believe you're referring to what we call construction engineers as opposed to bridging engineers and field engineers. Senior engineers have served in all three.

                                Sir, be advised that you're the 1st person I've met who explained the procedure and training for infantry to negotiate minefields. Even those who are supposed knowledgeable about the InA could not explain why engineers didn't do the penetration.

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