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  • #31
    it aint on AMERICAN books, it is not trained by AMERICAN tankers. could you maybe start to look behind the horizon? the world is much bigger, so please ask around.

    regards
    axl

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    • #32
      Axl,

      I'm Canadian. What's more. I was at CFB Lahrs with the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group in Germany with VII Corps. In other words, I worked, trained, and examined NATO battle reqs, qualifications, and evals.

      And I've reached the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel. You tell me what field manual from which army at which page and which battle eval does this come from.

      I suggest you leave this because I know for a fact that this ain't done and most certainly not with any A10s or any American helos which you've claimed this was designed against.

      Comment


      • #33
        f***ing sh**, could you please stop interpreting my words and just read them? i don't claim that any german tank has been designed against american helicopters, how senile are you? go and ask a german tanker somewhere (as you don't believe me) if they train to attack helicopters with the main gun, please do. and if you find an experienced german tanker (not one of the childs with 4 months army experience) then ask him if it would be possible to attack even slow flying fixed wing planes and under what conditions. is that so difficult? okay, you may think a lieutenant-colonel is god and knows all, but you are wrong. reminds me somehow on the "a view good men" movie, the code red was also not in the manual.

        btw, i talked to some israeli tankers last year at the eurosatory. they train also to fight with the main gun against helicopters (with apfsds rounds), but they have the advantage of the auto tracker in the merk3baz.

        regards
        axl
        Last edited by axl; 01 Nov 03,, 09:33.

        Comment


        • #34
          Axl, how about a little respect?

          What the Colonel is saying is that doctrinally there are no NATO training requirements or qualifications tables for tanks to engage aircraft with the main gun.

          He is NOT saying that individual tank crews may or may not try these things in field problems- he is saying that there is no engagement docrtrine laid forth in any NATO field manuals- and he is COMPLETELY CORRECT to the best of my knowledge.

          Our tankers used to attempt helo engagements too(i already told of an instance where i witnessed it first hand), but that has nothing to do with what the Colonel is saying.

          And DO NOT insult other board members with name calling, got it?

          Take heed to this warning...there will not be another.

          Comment


          • #35
            that was fast. just remember ..but forget it.

            i'm not a library, i don't have field manuals around. you guys are telling me that you know all field manuals, fine. i don't think that there has to a doctrine or whatever you wanna call it. there is a target that you can reach, get it. i don't think that there are special doctrines for apcs and mbts and trucks and and and.
            i also don't talk about what individual tank crews are thinking what they can do. the germans have the helicopters even in the simulators and attack them. that's part of the normal training! if you don't believe it, get some german tankers and ask them. oh yes, helicopter attacks are possible only since the early 1980s with the more modern fcs. and the german tankers started training it more regular with the introduction of digital simulators in the early 1990s. before there was no way to train that, except being lucky and get a helicopter in sight that you can track.

            @Officer of Engineers
            when did you leave germany, when did you leave the army, when did you last time talked to german tankers about that topic?

            regards
            axl

            Comment


            • #36
              There is an FM and/or doctrine for everything the military views as useful.

              The fact that there is not one for MBT or ATGM main gun engagement of aircraft should tell you something.

              Comment


              • #37
                maybe there is one in germany, who cares? can you guaranty that there is no in the german army? the engagement of airial targets is not much different from the engagement of ground targets. btw, leo2a5 got a modification on the lrf. its now possible to select between different laser echos. this is useful especially when attacking helicopters, as the rotor may ruine your ranging data.
                release of fuse ee33 on the driver's pannel of the leopard 2 allows you to bypass the driver's hatch lock. you can then open the hatch at any turret position and even if the turret is switched on or even to stab mode. this is not written in any field manual, but still true. and in the old days it was wuite a usual thing for the drivers.

                regards
                axl

                Comment


                • #38
                  The Colonel already told you no such FM exists in any NATO military.

                  If the word of a field grade NATO officer isn't enough for you what difference would me telling you none exists make?

                  I guarantee what you mention wrt the Leo II is in the maintenance manual.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    you are telling me that somebody knows ALL field manuals of ALL nato countries by heard? c'mon, wake up.

                    there is no "leo3 maintenance manual", but several different technical guidelines. i have seen tonns of them, but none mentioning the described problem.
                    another point: german army tank units release own manuals or extensions to official manuals. this is simply because not all fields of modern tanking are covered and changes need too much time. leopard 2 is given also with a max combat range of 4.000m as that is the max range the lrf hands over to the fcs. but still there are tables how to attack static targets on higher ranges. but that is not in the shooting manual leopard 2. so what?

                    regards
                    axl

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by axl
                      @Officer of Engineers
                      when did you leave germany,
                      When 4Bde left but been back several times on my way through to UNPROFOR, I/SFOR.

                      Originally posted by axl
                      when did you leave the army,
                      Officially, I'm still in as part of the secondary reserves.

                      Originally posted by axl
                      when did you last time talked to german tankers about that topic?
                      Don't need to. An AD regt is still standard TOE of all NATO bdes. I know what each bn is required to pass battle eval and for the arm'd bn, AD engagements ain't on the requirements. In case, you don't know (and it sounds like you don't), my job is to make sure my bde is combat qualified and that means a checklist that every battalion must perform and what you're stating ain't on that list which is a NATO list.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        found a manual: AnwFE 226/662
                        as you know all nato field manuals you should know also this one. now get a copy and have fun. i can't send you a copy, it's only for using within the german army.

                        regards
                        axl

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by axl
                          you are telling me that somebody knows ALL field manuals of ALL nato countries by heard? c'mon, wake up.
                          As part of my job, I have access to all NATO manuals and yours ain't there.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by axl
                            found a manual: AnwFE 226/662
                            Will check it out Monday morning to see if your AD engagement is in there.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              wait a second. its not a requirement of tank units to do air defence. fine. but that means also that they are not able to and that they don't train it? if you take all your knowledge out of books and don't see a need to talk to people, don't you think you miss something? you have kinda like a poor attitude, don't you think? i have a book that the world is a disk and stay with this opinion until i get a better book which describes that the eath is a globe.

                              is in your official requirement list something about tanks being able to ford up to 4 meters or go 90km/h fast?

                              regards
                              axl

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Oh please Snipe Please modify the ROE with this guy..... That last was a poorly vailed insult to the Col. and for that matter you.
                                Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

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