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Thread: Yamato Armour vs a 16"/50

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    Yamato Armour vs a 16"/50

    After the war the USN found 26 inch side plates for the third Yamato class BB at Kure. THe ship Shinano as you may now had been converted to a CV. The plate was tested against a 16"/50 shot. While god only knows what range it took place at the results were impressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparten
    After the war the USN found 26 inch side plates for the third Yamato class BB at Kure. THe ship Shinano as you may now had been converted to a CV. The plate was tested against a 16"/50 shot. While god only knows what range it took place at the results were impressive.
    Ouch! That'll ruin your whole day....
    I'd really like to know the range though
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
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    Defense Professional Dreadnought's Avatar
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    I would be interested in finding out the range they fired at. Either way thats alot of damage for a 16"/50 shell. I would seem to think that it was fired at a moderate but not long range judging by the scouring effect around the initial penetration marks. IMO Close range probably would have cratered/shattered the surface plates but not penetrated it. That shot looks as though it was able to gain substantial (drilling) velocity. It would be my guess that it was fired from moderate (medium) range. Dam they hide all the neat stuff the Navy did afterwards to test their armor strengths. I will look for additional info on this

    I did find this page that discusses various armor schemes for the Axis/Allies its by Nathan Okun if you are familiar. Interesting and informative read though and i'll keep looking.
    http://www.combinedfleet.com/okun_biz.htm

    Ok found a better page with stats,ranges and elevations for the 16"/50 and pics of their set up im sure you guys are familiar with this page.
    http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 19 Oct 05, at 16:03.

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    10~15 K yards would be my best bet. Of course at a proper ranger any big BB Rifle will penetrate any armour, hell even an Alaska Class CB could do that to Yamatos armour.

    Of course, if you were a Japanese Captain and that happened you would be yelling oh shyt.
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    Ok, did my homework on this and this is what I have found.

    1) The plate was 26" inches thick. And yes as stated by TH it was a part of the Yamato class armor scheme found at Kure Naval Yard.

    2) It was peirced by a 2700lb. shell fired at approximately 30,000 yards from a 16"/45 South Dakota class rifle (not mounted aboard ship). The gun was taken from Turrent #2 gun #2 from USS South Dakota while repairing battle damage from the nite engagement where USS Washington sunk the IJN Karashima.

    3) The tests were conducted by the leading most authority on the 16" rifles namely Naval Master Gunner FCCM Stephen Skelley.

    The tests concluded that in a fight between any of the Iowa class and the Yamato class, Yamato's immunity range was much smaller then originally thought and as testing showed would certainly be at a disadvantage on the business end of an Iowa Class 16"/50 Rifle if it could not withstand a hit from South Dakota's 16"/45 rifle.

    A link so that you may read as well.

    http://www.geocities.com/fort_tilden/16ingun.html
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 05 Jan 06, at 15:44.

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    I had always presumed that the most likely outcome for an Iowa/Yamato confrontation would be, Iowa disengaging after a pitched battle. Seems now the battle would be pretty even, with Yamato holding the edge in gunpower, and yes armour, but the difference would be less than the difference bwteeen the two crews.

    Dreadnought, I believe the USN did tests on Yamatos gun as well. The results were that while it was superior at most ranges than the 16"/50, its performance suffered (esp at extreme range) suffered due to Japanese insistance on underwater shell explosions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparten
    I had always presumed that the most likely outcome for an Iowa/Yamato confrontation would be, Iowa disengaging after a pitched battle. Seems now the battle would be pretty even, with Yamato holding the edge in gunpower, and yes armour, but the difference would be less than the difference bwteeen the two crews.

    Dreadnought, I believe the USN did tests on Yamatos gun as well. The results were that while it was superior at most ranges than the 16"/50, its performance suffered (esp at extreme range) suffered due to Japanese insistance on underwater shell explosions.
    The Yamatos gun range was better (48km against Iowas 38km range) however the Iowa's had far better Fire Control Radar MK13 this allowed them to maintain a firing solution while under evasive manuvering where as the Japanese FCR was not as up to par from what reports have shown.

    So much for the super battleship being unstoppable by another BB.
    This leads one to ponder if the Navy was still believing false information on the Yamato when she was attacked by navy planes instead of the Iowa's that were already on station.

    Or did the men calling the shots think..Well we were at anchor during Pearl against the Japanese planes perhaps we should do them in the very same way the Arizona was sunk with our planes however they are moving where we were not. Something we will never know but I would love to find out.

    This ofcoarse is my opinon mixed with fact.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 05 Jan 06, at 16:26.

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    I had always presumed that the most likely outcome for an Iowa/Yamato confrontation would be, Iowa disengaging after a pitched battle. Seems now the battle would be pretty even, with Yamato holding the edge in gunpower, and yes armour, but the difference would be less than the difference bwteeen the two crews

    According to many articles written on this Yes Yamato's armor was thicker then the Iowa Class armor however its was considered much inferior as per armor grade then that of the Iowas.

    If Yamatos armor could be pierced as above with a 16"/45 South Dakota rifle @30,000 yards then an Iowa class 16"/50 rifle would do even more damage considering the muzzle velocity will have been increased as the barrel length increased as well.

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    An Iowa would've ravaged a Yamato in real battle. Not only did the Iowas have better armored protection, but the 16"/50 AP round actually outpenetrates the 18" AP shell of the Yamatos handily. The Iowas also had vastly superior fire control systems as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M21Sniper
    The Iowas also had vastly superior fire control systems as well.
    That's the deciding factor. Who can place rounds on the target sooner.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    Hmmm... we'll never know will we? But a thought, at Jutland the Derffligers managaed not only to stand up to the Yamatos of their day; the Queen Elizabeth, but actually forced them to retire and link up with the main grand fleet and reduced one; Warspite, to a flaming wreck, (true the fact Warspite's rudder got jammed did'nt hurt either, but she was withrawing already).
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparten
    Hmmm... we'll never know will we? But a thought, at Jutland the Derffligers managaed not only to stand up to the Yamatos of their day; the Queen Elizabeth, but actually forced them to retire and link up with the main grand fleet and reduced one; Warspite, to a flaming wreck, (true the fact Warspite's rudder got jammed did'nt hurt either, but she was withrawing already).
    Superior fire-control did that.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter
    Superior fire-control did that.
    German Fire Control Radar from what I have read was actually very accurate once the idea was grasped in fact so good that the USN actually borrowed some of the technology post WWII.

    Here is an article by Nathan Okun on FRC used during WWII for the USN, Kreigsmarine and the RN.

    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-013.htm


    Definately one of the best battleship tech information pages I have found and by who else then Landgraff, Okun and and many others.
    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_tech.htm
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 06 Jan 06, at 15:45.

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    Actus Reus Senior Contributor sparten's Avatar
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    What I meant to say is, what is on paper does may not be necessarily reflected on the battlefield. Some unthought or unimagined variable......
    "Any relations in a social order will endure if there is infused into them some of that spirit of human sympathy, which qualifies life for immortality." ~ George William Russell

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    Definately agree paper is paper, battle is battle chance certainly favors the prepared

    The U.S. was casting sweet revenge on Japan in the name of Pearl Harbor as they were on her doorstep and about ready to break down the door and yes those sailors were chomping at the bit to get a shot at the Japanese Navy and Yamato any way any how they could.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 06 Jan 06, at 17:51.

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