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Thread: Cindy Sheehan Unplugged

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilingassassin
    Flying planes into buildings has but one responce and the nations that do nothing to prevent these cockroaches from scurrying from one stank dark hole to another are simply aiding them. Saddam had a golden opertunity to make things right and he screwed up, best for all Iraqi's he didn't wise up. Now they have a golden opertunity to create a great and peacefull nation so long as we have their backs.

    Why are you again equating the Al-qeada with Iraq, they have no connection? prove me otherwise

    Josh

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilingassassin
    Why? Do you think they will do a better job in Iraq then they did in Sudan? with Saddam looking for every loophole in UN resolutions do you really want to give him an opertunity to get back to buisiness as usual?

    You get things done faster (no questions asked)in a country like China than in say democracies like USA or INDIA(too much debate and law problems). Does that mean we should discard demcracy and take up communism or authorative rule

    Rules and laws are kept for a reason.

    Josh

  3. #168
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh
    Why are you again equating the Al-qeada with Iraq, they have no connection? prove me otherwise

    Josh
    Here ya go sporty boy:

    * Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

    * Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

    * Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

    * Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

    * An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

    * In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

    * In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

    (Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

    * As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

    * Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

    * An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

    * In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

    *The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

    * Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

    * In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

    * That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

    * Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

    *Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

    * Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

    * Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

    * Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

    * Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

    * Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

    * After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

    If you want to read more, on testimonies, here is the link:

    http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html

  4. #169
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    i will sum everything up for you

    USA trained and funded the Mujaheedin against the Soviets.
    USA supported Iraq during Iran-Iraq war.

    Case closed

    Josh

  5. #170
    Staff Emeritus Julie's Avatar
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    What does the Soviet and Iran have to do with what is going on in Iraq right this moment? Are you running out of data or something? Because if so, I have plenty more for you to chew on if you want it.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julie
    What does the Soviet and Iran have to do with what is going on in Iraq right this moment? Are you running out of data or something? Because if so, I have plenty more for you to chew on if you want it.
    My lady
    Everything in history has relvence to the present and its future. The Jihadi groups was intiated to fight the godless commies.

    Give me 10 days and i will be at your disposal(gotta hand in my desertation-12000 words to go)

    and i will give you plenty more data

    Josh

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh
    My lady
    Everything in history has relvence to the present and its future. The Jihadi groups was intiated to fight the godless commies.

    Give me 10 days and i will be at your disposal(gotta hand in my desertation-12000 words to go)

    and i will give you plenty more data

    Josh
    American supported Stalin commies to fight against Nazi Germany(and Italy) in WWII, big deal!!!

  8. #173
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    An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.
    As you said yourself. The realtion between them were not really friendly at least in the past.

    Lets establiash another connetion shall we?

    - Mr Bush had many buiseness contacts with members from the Bin Laden family

    - He even invited them ito his private house

    - Later on it was discovered that some of them had still contact directly to Osama Bin Laden

    - After 9/11 he allowed many members of the Bin Laden family to leave the country

    I think Mr. President Bush is highly suspect of being a member of AQ and should be locked away without a trial.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now on a more serious side. Yeah SH was a really bad guy but these attemps to establish connetions to 9/11 to justify the war, discredit the whole argumentation for the war IMHO

    We know that SH was hardly a friend of the US. I think it is even possible that he reached some kind of understanding with various terrorist groups like : You don´t hurt me / I don´t hurt you. Still that doesn´t mean he was activly planning 9/11
    Last edited by Sombra; 28 Aug 05, at 09:14.

  9. #174
    Ubi dubium ibi libertas Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombra
    As you said yourself. The realtion between them were not really friendly at least in the past.

    Lets establiash another connetion shall we?

    - Mr Bush had many buiseness contacts with members from the Bin Laden family

    - He even invited them ito his private house

    - Later on it was discovered that some of them had still contact directly to Osama Bin Laden

    - After 9/11 he allowed many members of the Bin Laden family to leave the country

    I think Mr. President Bush is highly suspect of being a member of AQ and should be locked away without a trial.
    "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have."
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

    NEVER FORGET

  10. #175
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh
    Please, now you are talking like all islamic crazed people saying "jews and israel control america"

    France and Germany bought over by saddam..lol

    Always look at both sides of the coin , it only makes you better.

    Josh
    Josh-

    You DO understand that the oil deals between Saddam, France, Russia, and the UN are proven facts, right? That France and Germany and Russia were pushing for an ending of the sanctions regime since at least 1998? And that the "sweetheart" deals that were in place between those nations would have meant billions of dollars for those nations (never mind the UN "Oil for Money" scandal funneling similar moneys into the hands of individuals). Under those conditions, France and Russia were clearly opposing the U.S. in the UNSC for simple financial reasons, probably colored by France's desire to look important.

    -dale

  11. #176
    Banned Senior Contributor dalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh
    i will sum everything up for you

    USA trained and funded the Mujaheedin against the Soviets.
    The Mujahadin are not Al Qaeda.

    USA supported Iraq during Iran-Iraq war.
    With some bits of satellite intel, yes. At that time Iran was in our dog house, and nothing could have suited us better than a bunch of Iraqis and Iranians mowing each other down.

    So if you call that "support", then sure. We wanted our Realpolitik A-hole to come out slightly ahead of their Realpolitik A-hole.

    Case closed

    Josh
    Quite. But not perhaps the way you think it is.

    -dale

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sombra
    As you said yourself. The realtion between them were not really friendly at least in the past.

    Lets establiash another connetion shall we?

    - Mr Bush had many buiseness contacts with members from the Bin Laden family

    - He even invited them ito his private house

    - Later on it was discovered that some of them had still contact directly to Osama Bin Laden

    - After 9/11 he allowed many members of the Bin Laden family to leave the country

    I think Mr. President Bush is highly suspect of being a member of AQ and should be locked away without a trial.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now on a more serious side. Yeah SH was a really bad guy but these attemps to establish connetions to 9/11 to justify the war, discredit the whole argumentation for the war IMHO

    We know that SH was hardly a friend of the US. I think it is even possible that he reached some kind of understanding with various terrorist groups like : You don´t hurt me / I don´t hurt you. Still that doesn´t mean he was activly planning 9/11
    Sombra,

    Those are Michael Moore talking points from Farenheit 911. Here's a 56+ point that provides context to some of the "facts" and flat out refutes the rest: http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm (the link wasn't working when I clicked on it, so here's a text version - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1165837/posts).

    As far as the 9/11 - Saddam link, that was a link that was never pushed hard as a justification for OIF. The Czech intel that Atta met a IIS agent in Prague was discussed on its merits in the open, and if you read the President's remarks, you don't find any 9/11 - SH references.

    Now, the fact that Saddam had unaccounted for WMD, there was a 3+ year black hole of UN weapons inspections, and Saddam had links to terrorism and an exploratory relationship with AQ that was on the rise, led to the logical framing of an argument that Saddam was a gathering threat that could feed AQ and affiliates WMD for future 9/11 like attacks.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh
    i will sum everything up for you

    USA trained and funded the Mujaheedin against the Soviets.
    USA supported Iraq during Iran-Iraq war.

    Case closed

    Josh
    So nations can't change course? If that's the case, then why even argue against current policy? Non-sequiter.

    Also, the USA funded AFGHANI mujahadeen, not ARAB mujahadeen, and training was done through the ISI with rare and by exception training by the CIA (the Stinger is the only case that I'm aware of, but I'm sure there were a handful of other exceptions).

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by shek
    So nations can't change course? If that's the case, then why even argue against current policy? Non-sequiter.

    Also, the USA funded AFGHANI mujahadeen, not ARAB mujahadeen, and training was done through the ISI with rare and by exception training by the CIA (the Stinger is the only case that I'm aware of, but I'm sure there were a handful of other exceptions).
    Never said that sir,

    I am just pointing out there were times when these regime's and US were allies. Restoration of democracy in oil rich country when own allies are autocratic or Kingdoms, well to me it doesnt sell.

    I am glad US foriegn policy has changed after 9/11, it has taken terrorist head on as well as got out of the cold war syndrome where it was ready to bend the ideals it was founded on for short term military and economic gains. No country is a 24hrs do-gooder angel, even mine.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Josh
    Last edited by Adux; 28 Aug 05, at 15:04.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh
    Never said that sir,

    I am just pointing out there were times when these regime's and US were allies. Restoration of democracy in oil rich country when own allies are autocratic or Kingdoms, well to me it doesnt sell.

    I am glad US foriegn policy has changed after 9/11, it has taken terrorist head on as well as got out of the cold war syndrome where it was ready to bend the ideals it was founded on for short term military and economic gains. No country is a 24hrs do-gooder angel, even mine.
    Actions at the state level are like that. Bastards running nations are acceptable, just as long as they're our bastards. If they attack or threaten us, then we remove their ability to threaten our safety. If we can do some good along the way (such as bringing democracy to a people so long suppressed), then so much the better. However the doing good for them is subordinated to protecting American interests. If our government operated any other way, then it would not be fulfilling it's obligation to the American people.

    Saddam screwed up. We were content with the status quo, and were willing to use him to get back at the very obviously hostile regime in Tehran. However then he chose to go and attack the oil supply for Japan and Western Europe, and after that it was simply a matter of time before he had to go. As long as he didn't attack any of our allies or their strategic interests we were fine to let him be. When he attacked, and proved to be quite incompetent at it... well then he was gone and deserved it.

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