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  • #61
    "this would put the infantry around the tank right?....."

    Yup. And that is one of the few legitimate criticisms of turbine powered tanks.

    The exhaust plume is so hot it prevents infantrymen from using the rear of the tank for cover when operating with the DATs.

    Comment


    • #62
      @sniper
      as you say the tc is a prefered target for you should also be able to say that the tc (and the loader) should have the heads inside the tank, right? also not all tanks are like the abrams. the leopard 1/2 have rings over the hatches. like that it is easier to have the head some cm outside without making a good visible target.
      you have never seen tank platoons acting as a team? this speaks more against the training than against the automatic loader. i don't know it like that. for me a tank unit belongs together, if one brakes the others are around. even during normal maintenance all crews work together. we call that team.
      when a kinetic energy round hits the target enormous energies are around that will do quite some damage. not to speak about heat rounds.
      and please explane me how you use infantry and tanks together. tanks move, the infantry will never follow walking. if the tank is in a static position and the infantry is extremely close somebody does not make his job right. everybody knows that if a tank has been spotted by the enemy it will receive fire. so its not a good place to get some sleep. and have you ever been close to a firing tank? infront of the tank the risk of to get killed is quite high. this is also the area where most hits on thet tank will occure and where possibly mounted era will work. around the tank you will have quite some nice energywaves that will make you sick and you just run away. tanks are not toys and infantry is not walking beside the tank. or lets say "it should not come close". armour and infantry fight together, but not side by side.

      what is a mout environment?

      regards
      axl


      www.kampfpanzer.de

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Stinger
        Granting I never worked with armor, but isn't it a basic tenet that Tanks have infantry support to help protect them from enemy infantry moving up on the tank from blindspots?.... this would put the infantry around the tank right?.....:dontcare
        i would never use tanks without infantry. the question is how close you wanna come to each other and what type of combat you perform. in defensive operations infantry will be more or less static but be able to put allot of fire against the enemy. tanks are never static in battle, only to rest or observe. but as tanks are quite fast it is difficult to follow. moreover a concentration of forces around one point/vehicle by using tank and dismounts on the same place makes you just weaker and lets you loose more firepower than necessary in case of a hit there. and this hit possible as you fire normally against the biggest threat.

        regards
        axl

        www.kampfpanzer.de

        Comment


        • #64
          So your saying you wouldn't use tanks with infantry in a Mout invironement?
          Your look more lost than a bastard child on fathers day.

          Comment


          • #65
            "as you say the tc is a prefered target for you should also be able to say that the tc (and the loader) should have the heads inside the tank, right?"

            For my part i tried to teach them that lesson as often as possible in training. ;)

            "you have never seen tank platoons acting as a team?"

            I most certainly have.

            "this speaks more against the training than against the automatic loader. i don't know it like that. for me a tank unit belongs together, if one brakes the others are around. even during normal maintenance all crews work together. we call that team."

            If you Bn or Company is advancing and on a timetable(and we're always on timetables, right?), and one of them breaks down, the CO is not going to halt the column(or a whole plt) for one tank. There are several instances during OIF and ODS where a single Abrams found itself alone and outnumbered and had to slug it out with enemy armor.

            Having a human loader allows the loader and driver to repair the broken tank segment while the TC and gunner continuously scan for targets and cover them.

            "when a kinetic energy round hits the target enormous energies are around that will do quite some damage. not to speak about heat rounds."

            Yup, the kill radius outside the tank is about 20 feet when a sabot hits it. That's why i specified 20 feet. Would you shoot a HEAT at an Abrams or Leo II? I wouldn't....you'll just piss them off.

            "and please explane me how you use infantry and tanks together. tanks move, the infantry will never follow walking. if the tank is in a static position and the infantry is extremely close somebody does not make his job right. everybody knows that if a tank has been spotted by the enemy it will receive fire. so its not a good place to get some sleep."

            Tanks advance very slowly through narrow streets and in close broken terrain. There are myriad blindspots and defilades that enemy infantry can take advantadge of in these sorts of terrains, and friendly infantry is deployed to screen friendly armor to protect it from enemy infantry ATGM teams. This was began in WWI, and continues to this day.

            "and have you ever been close to a firing tank?"

            Sure have. Feels like your teeth are going to fall out.

            "infront of the tank the risk of to get killed is quite high."

            OBVIOUSLY.

            "this is also the area where most hits on thet tank will occure and where possibly mounted era will work."

            EXCEPT in MOUT and close terrain. Then the flanks and rear of the tank are most vulnerable. ERA that detonates has very similar effects as an APERS mine. When the plate detonates it breaks into dozens(or more) fragments and those fragments are blown outward for quite some distance. A single ERA plate detonating can wipe out a whole squad of supporting infantry.

            "tanks are not toys and infantry is not walking beside the tank. or lets say "it should not come close". armour and infantry fight together, but not side by side."

            Yes, they most certainly do in the terrain types i listed above.

            "what is a mout environment?"

            Urban terrain....aka a city.

            Know what happens to unsupported tanks in a city when the enemy has decent ATGM's?

            As a claimed ex tanker, you most certainly should.

            Read that AAR, it would be well worth your time, and you will come to understand why you are mistaken on these issues.

            Comment


            • #66
              urban combat is an extremely specific operation. here its just normal that tanks and infantry come close together. but that is also not the area where tanks are made for.

              don't know how the us army is operating on the march. for me it is normal that an arv is with the tanks on the move. so if one brakes the guys help out. or at least there is a repair troop around. and still its not a reason for the human loader. or just check what repairs you really can do, it's not that much. for me the platoon is the most important unit and you care for each other.

              the 20 feet radius is kinda like small. do you wanna be 21 feet away from a tank when it gets hit? not me.

              apfsds is the first choice when attacking armour, no question about it. practically (my personal experience) the loader reloads the same ammo type until further order. means if you have a heat round in the gun you have the next heat round in your hand. if then a tank shows up you will fire the heat round and not unload it. the same happens if you are out of apfsds or your ready rack becomes empty. if you are in a hull down position and haven't been spotted it is possible to unload, but that is not the normal procedure.

              i never trained with snipers, but we tried to teach the tc's to stay inside the tank. there is no need to put the head far outside and guys like you also the reason why i don't like aa-mg's...a hole in the head is not that funny.

              regards
              axl

              www.kampfpanzer.de

              Comment


              • #67
                "urban combat is an extremely specific operation. here its just normal that tanks and infantry come close together. but that is also not the area where tanks are made for."

                You can add broken/close terrain ops too. Also, severely restricted visibility conditions(read that sand storms, dust devils, etc) The reality is that today, most battles happen in cities or towns.

                It's not too often you are blessed with the wide open expanses of a desert or wide open prairie.


                "don't know how the us army is operating on the march. for me it is normal that an arv is with the tanks on the move."

                M-88 ARV's can't keep up with the tip of the spear(M-1's and M-2's) in most terrain.

                "so if one brakes the guys help out. or at least there is a repair troop around. and still its not a reason for the human loader. or just check what repairs you really can do, it's not that much. for me the platoon is the most important unit and you care for each other."

                Not how it works in the US Army. If a tank or PC falls out, the rest keep going to the objective and follow on units scoop up the disabled vehicles. Reason being that the advance is not slowed by stragglers.

                For regular motor pool/field maintenance(PMCS) the tank's crew alone performs the maintenance.

                "the 20 feet radius is kinda like small. do you wanna be 21 feet away from a tank when it gets hit? not me."

                I would prefer to not be in a free fire zone to begin with. Nor did i like being around ordnance magnets if i could help it. But orders are orders. I therefore followed them to the best of my abilities, as a good soldier should.

                "apfsds is the first choice when attacking armour, no question about it. practically (my personal experience) the loader reloads the same ammo type until further order. means if you have a heat round in the gun you have the next heat round in your hand. if then a tank shows up you will fire the heat round and not unload it. the same happens if you are out of apfsds or your ready rack becomes empty. if you are in a hull down position and haven't been spotted it is possible to unload, but that is not the normal procedure."

                In the US Army and USMC the TC identifies the target and states what ammo type to use for each target.

                "i never trained with snipers, but we tried to teach the tc's to stay inside the tank. there is no need to put the head far outside and guys like you also the reason why i don't like aa-mg's...a hole in the head is not that funny."

                In MOUT/Close terrain anyone that can wield a vehicle machine gun becomes a huge asset to the vehicle and unit as a whole. As you know, the FLIR of the tank and the main gun/CO-Ax are severely limited in elevation/depression. If you are recieving RPG fire from a rooftop, defilade, or ridge close at hand the only way to ID and engage the target is via the use of the turret mounted MG's(or of course artillery- but it takes a while to before you get a splash call).

                This happened constantly during OIF.

                In open terrain the tank is the most powerful unit at play, and infantry is exposed and subordinate. Switch to MOUT/Close terrain, and it is the exact opposite.

                Tanks without infantry in CQB are in deep poo. Without the turret MG's, they're in it over their head.(with the qualification that the enemy has a reliable means to kill them- ie ATGM's or powerful unguided rockets like the AT-4).

                There were numerous cases in OIF(covered in the AAR i keep referring to) where M-1's and Bradleys were pelted by dozens of RPG-7's. Had the Iraqi's had a decent AT system, we would have lost scores of armored vehicles on the push to Baghdad alone. If we had not had turret mounted MG's it would have been worse still.

                The M-1A1 and older had a remote control Ma Duece TC weapon system, but the A2 and A2SEP have reverted to manual operaion only.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by axl
                  @s_qwert63
                  from what source you get your stupid information? first picture is still a polish pt-91. second picture shows a totally different tank. it is designated as t-72mp and is offered by the ukrain toigether with czech and france.
                  poland can't use the t-72a, as this version is not used outside the soviet union. the export versions are t-72m and t-72m1.
                  http://www.arms.ru/tank/t72.htm

                  how is that a pt-91? what are the characteristics? how did you recognize it?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    http://arms.host.sk/tanks/twardy.htm

                    The PT-91 is a variant of the T-72.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      @M21Sniper
                      sorry, but i'm not used to go the american way. therefore i don't think about m88, but about an arv that is capable of go with the tanks. never understood how the us army could operate without.
                      same for the maintenance, that is not the way it should be.

                      the american way of ordering what to fire (tc is chosing the ammunition, loader is loading it and gunner is switching to it) is not perfect. as i've been told it has been like that before and is going on. but you have to think that there are better ways. in stressy situations you don't undertsand what somebody is yelling on you or you simply miss it. or i have seen that the tc forgot to switch to the other round and and an.

                      i know the remote controlable mg for the m1a1 tc. it's fun to use and you can play around. as the tc has no real sight it is boring. so the mg gives some kind of help. i don't understand why they removed it later on. a russian like stabilized one would be much better.

                      and i forgot that i'm not a desert warrior. where i'm living is no desert around and the only possible battlefield for me is europe. i'm not a conqueror.

                      @s_qwert63
                      you are kidding, right? the era arrangement of the tank on the first picture is characteristic. the second one has kontak-5 and the savan-15 sight plus that horrible large panoramic sight for the tc. that is a t-72mp. you are really telling me that there is the same tank on both pictures?
                      in addition i could not find any mentioning of the t-72bu2 on that link. my russian is not the best anymore, but so far the t-72b is the last i see there. they also don't mention most of the t-72 versions. quite normal for tank pages...

                      regards
                      axl

                      www.kampfpanzer.de
                      Last edited by axl; 22 Oct 03,, 22:02.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        t-72bu is the only one that has been developed. it was fielded as t-90
                        ...originally T-72BM ... that's the same tank as T-90, but the last have thermals, FCS from T-80U, SHTORA, new 1000 hp diesel engine, and last generation ERA ... T-72BM take action in all last Chechen wars and showed fantastic results! That's way our soldiers called it "The big rmored sniper rifle" ... There is multiple of facts of attacks by chechens these tanks from the close range with last modification Russian RPGs, but T-72BM have no serious damages from 7-8 directs hits.

                        As for the "best tank in the world"

                        T-95



                        And T-80UM1

                        ÂÛ ÂÑÅ ÏÎÄÎÍÊÈ ÀÌÅÐÈÊÀÍÑÊÈÅ!

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                        • #72
                          As for the "best tank in the world"

                          T-95
                          Doesn't excist yet and probley won't do to the lack of funding. On top of that it is rumored to have the same weight as the T-80 and T-90 but since it has a bigger gun it means less of the weight is armour and more of it is the gun and ammo.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Doesn't excist yet and probley won't do to the lack of funding
                            ... exist already and some of them are already in flames;)

                            ... and please ... take away your foolish theory about tanks, that "every good tank must weight more than 70 tons" ... the big weight is disadvantage! And also the Russian scientist are better know, what to do ;) The armor and firepower of that tank is unreacheble for any west country for 20 years more ...
                            Last edited by =MayheM=; 10 Dec 03,, 16:04.
                            ÂÛ ÂÑÅ ÏÎÄÎÍÊÈ ÀÌÅÐÈÊÀÍÑÊÈÅ!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Next thing he'll be saying that having armor and a gun on the tank are pointless...
                              Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                              Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Fool. There is no Merkava Mk IV. And stop with the anti-Semetic remarks, will ya?
                                Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                                Abusing Yellow is meant to be a labor of love, not something you sell to the highest bidder.

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