I never said I did have a say... nor do you 'have a say'. I merely say it misleading to speak of "Indian oppression" of anything in comparison their Chinese neighbours.
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Genuine question, why should the form of government in China vis-a-vis that in India affect how the US treats them?
It's understandable for countries where democratic alternatives would lean towards the US. In China's case, the power competition would probably remain. E.g. claims on Tibet, SCS, Xinjiang, Hong Kong and maybe Mongolia; energy security; and food security.
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Colonel OOE, GVChamp - Kashmir is what Nehru's folly alongwith Britain's imperialistic mindset gave us. At one point, even the US was supporting masters of Jihadis, killing innocent people in Kashmir. And that changed after 9/11. Kashmir is not oppressed. Both of you need to understand the issues behind it before talking about it in the same breath as China. Pakistan is the problem, it is Pakistan that send numerous Jihadis who have made Kashmir a killing field. And US still mollycoddles Pakistan. Ahhh, Canada, harbours Sikh terrorists that are funded by the notorious ISI. Both of you should understand the real issues plaguing Kashmir. There are even threads about it in this very board.
And Colonel, when did India try to censor US media? I don't like left-leaning US publications, does it mean that I make India's foreign policy?
GVChamp - outsourced call-centers to India, has long left India for the Philippines. India has no territorial claims, apart from PoK. That was legal, is legal, and will be legal. We have the instrument of accession of Kashmir with the Union of India. See below.
Kashmir is Indian real-estate. Tomorrow, day after tomorrow, or 10 years from tomorrow, we will take Kashmir by force, if nothing else.Last edited by Oracle; 15 Jul 20,, 13:07.Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by snapper View PostI never said I did have a say... nor do you 'have a say'. I merely say it misleading to speak of "Indian oppression" of anything in comparison their Chinese neighbours.Chimo
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostColonel OOE, GVChamp - Kashmir is what Nehru's folly alongwith Britain's imperialistic mindset gave us. At one point, even the US was supporting masters of Jihadis, killing innocent people in Kashmir. And that changed after 9/11. Kashmir is not oppressed. Both of you need to understand the issues behind it before talking about it in the same breath as China. Pakistan is the problem, it is Pakistan that send numerous Jihadis who have made Kashmir a killing field. And US still mollycoddles Pakistan. Ahhh, Canada, harbours Sikh terrorists that are funded by the notorious ISI. Both of you should understand the real issues plaguing Kashmir. There are even threads about it in this very board.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostAnd Colonel, when did India try to censor US media? I don't like left-leaning US publications, does it mean that I make India's foreign policy?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostKashmir is Indian real-estate. Tomorrow, day after tomorrow, or 10 years from tomorrow, we will take Kashmir by force, if nothing else.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostJ&K has an insurgency. It maybe a low level insurgency but it is still an insurgency with all the ugliness an insurgency brings.
Short-term American thinking has led to where we are today. You may not like it, but the fault lies with your past administrations. Not absolving India of her guilt here. No.
Both the NBA and ESPN are in India with Indian permission. By voicing their displeasure, both are now warned to self-censor less their merchandizing and broadcast license be underthreat.
Just look at how many Chinese apps are now banned in India.
Why is Meng Wanzhou in detention in Canada? Why did US sanction officials of Xinjiang and HongKong?
I want FaceBook and WhatsApp to be banned in India? You know why? Because criminals use it to start a riot, and killings and what not. This is my reason. There's 2G active in Kashmir, precisely because when 3G starts, Pak sponsored rioting and killing starts too.
There's another name for that. It's called an occupation. Not here to debate who's right or wrong but we in the West have a right to spout as much garbage and truth as we want .Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostYes, and Pakistan supports it, and US doesn't even flinch. Who got killed in Afghanistan in the 1000s? It ain't the Indians. Who was responsible for that? Again, it ain't the Indians. Sometimes, try to think about the ugly realities for what it is, rather than geo-strategic gains. What has stupid geo-strategic interests given US? I want to know, tell me. As of today I want to know those gains.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostShort-term American thinking has led to where we are today. You may not like it, but the fault lies with your past administrations. Not absolving India of her guilt here. No.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostIn India, if you want to have a TV channel or print media or even digital media, you need permission. Heck, I need permission too. And what self-censorship are you talking about, I don't know about it. Source please.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostAnd why are they banned? You don't know?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostWhy is Meng Wanzhou in detention in Canada? Why did US sanction officials of Xinjiang and HongKong?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostNot when we have the legal document. No. You have all the freedom to call it occupation, I have all the freedom to call it propaganda. Many among US think-tanks don't agree with you, and I know you will not like it, but there's a first time for everything.
I'm not the person you have to convince that it's not an occupation. It's the insurgent with the guns you have to convince. To paraphrase myself. All insurgencies, low level or not, are ugly and there's no clean way to fight it. Never has. Never will.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostYou serious? India is cobbled with the Pakistani monkey on her back. As much as the US spouts about being India's friend, we're not going to get that monkey off your back.
Friend or ally, these are just terms that are nice to hear. When mutual interests converge we will work together. Where are US-Pak ties now, as compared to, say, before Laden was killed in Abbotabad. And where are US-India ties now, as compared to the Cold War. Even when we don't abandon our strategic autonomy, and we are hell bent on keeping that, US finds a way to convince our government to get indulged in deals and groupings. It might not mean anything to you, but we are there, aren't we? Why did the US give India a civil-nuke deal? Business. But, just business?
Things are changing, Sir, slowly but surely. I refuse to be part of the Cold War mentality, that see things through past perceptions, and wants to be held hostage to it. Hooked onto the past, we can never forge ahead. Time is coming to build a new order, and that does not include China or Pakistan or Iran or Turkey or etcetera. You very well understand what I'm trying to say.
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostWWIII thinking, by its very definition, is short term thinking. During my time, we were seriously thinking that there's no way to avoid WWIII. It scared enough people in the West to hold unilateral disarmament marches. Better to live under communism for them than to die in WWIII. You know how India was viewed.
How do I give you a source of people shutting up? You can't hear silence.
US media and silent. You are not being serious. Washington Post, Times, NYTimes etc carry provocative editorials/articles about the Modi led Government, and I still can access them. Where does their ad revenue go? Yes, America. Sir, I post both sides of the story when I find it, but I am center-right, not by chance, but by choice. You very well know how I view the Congress, socialists and the communists. Left or right, media is compromised in today's world. We need to acknowledge this fact.
For security reasons. Here's the thing. Those Chinese apps collects the same information as Google, Facebook, Whatsapp, Instagram, and every other social communication app. They collect IP addresses, location, pictures, contact list, etc. They have to in order to relay where you are and what you want to share across their servers to your friends. If you don't want the Chinese to have access to this info, why are you letting Google and Facebook have it?
But, as I said it, banning Chinese apps was a retaliation. Oh, one thing, India is not serious about cyber security.
Bottom line on this. Because we want to.
I've lived long enough to learn that you can always get around pieces of paper. The USSR was dissolved. Taiwan got kicked out of the P5. Yugoslavia broke up. India refusing to acknowledge Russian inheritance of Soviet loans. Get enough lawyers together and they can come up with language to do anything ... as long as you have the guns backing them up.
You have served with honour. Not doubting your experiences. I'm challenging your future perceptions, about Indo-US, about Indo-China, about so many things. Good, bad, right, wrong. I could be 100% wrong. Or I could be a bit right, not to spite you, but to see democracy, human and civil rights, free press and all such things associated with free countries progress. I don't think I am asking too much, I am just asking for my basic rights.
I'm not the person you have to convince that it's not an occupation. It's the insurgent with the guns you have to convince. To paraphrase myself. All insurgencies, low level or not, are ugly and there's no clean way to fight it. Never has. Never will.Last edited by Oracle; 15 Jul 20,, 17:23.Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Colonel, you now have 2000 posts. Congratulations. And now we are in a new thread. Lol, hahahaha.Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostOh I do have a say and my say is that neither India nor China has a right to censor us! PERIOD! We have a right to expose their dirty laundry. Just because India's laundry basket is much smaller does not give them more rights to censor us.
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostFriend or ally, these are just terms that are nice to hear. When mutual interests converge we will work together. Where are US-Pak ties now, as compared to, say, before Laden was killed in Abbotabad. And where are US-India ties now, as compared to the Cold War. Even when we don't abandon our strategic autonomy, and we are hell bent on keeping that, US finds a way to convince our government to get indulged in deals and groupings. It might not mean anything to you, but we are there, aren't we? Why did the US give India a civil-nuke deal? Business. But, just business?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostHmmmm.
Sir, please. US heard screams of all those Bangladeshi women being raped by the Pakistani Army, the genocide taking place, and looked the other way. Strategic gains, huh.
US media and silent. You are joking. Washington Post, Times, NYTimes etc carry provocative editorials/articles about the Modi led Government, and I still can access them. Where does their ad revenue go? Yes, US. Sir, I post both sides of the story when I find it, but I am center-right, not by chance, but by choice. You very well know how I view the Congress, socialists and the communists. Left or right, media is compromised in today's world. We need to acknowledge this fact.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostExactly. Because we also want to. It's not like we would go to war with US if one day we ban Google.
But the point remains. At a moment's notice, any foreign company doing business in India can lose their investment if they pissed off Dehli.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostI don't know about this part. Source please.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostYou have served with honour. Not doubting your experiences. I'm challenging your future perceptions, about Indo-US, about Indo-China, about so many things. Good, bad, right, wrong. I could be 100% wrong. Or I could be a bit right, not to spite you, but to see democracy, human and civil rights, free press and all such things associated with free countries progress. I don't think I am asking too much, I am just asking for my basic rights.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostWe have to convince ourselves first, that we need to let the Indian Army cross the border and let things finish on a logical level. Defang and de-arm the PA. Hang all those still alive for the genocide in Bangladesh, and responsible for 1000s of killings in Kashmir till date.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 15 Jul 20,, 18:54.Chimo
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Originally posted by snapper View PostThen by what right do you have say and I not? I prefer a country where people can have a meaningful vote and worship my/their God(s) freely, that permits critical voices to be heard. I do not apologise for being a conservative democrat.
You ain't no democrat precisely because you do not respect the voter's choice: Case in point - Trump. I don't like the fuck either but I respect the Americans enough not to insult their President with false allegations that have been proven to be without foundation no matter what your attempt in creating lies.Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 15 Jul 20,, 17:44.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostYou give the US too much credit. We're both democracies and as democracies, we are at the whims of the administrations in power. Bush pushed for 123. Obama wanted to reverse 123. Trump ... well Trump.
Obama wanted to reverse 123? Source?
Today? I have news for you. You ain't special. 2 million Cambodians and 700,000+ Rwandans also didn't make front page news. Out of curiousity, did you hear about the 2nd Congo War where 5+ million people died? Also not fornt page news.
Good luck with that. Google owns ANDROID. You could come up with your own linux code but it won't be accepted by the world and certainly will not be trusted by the world. Case in point: Huawei.
I am hearing for the last 10 years why can't India build a Google or a FaceBook. Well, how about this, why can't America build a Jio?
Yes, we can come up with a better version of Android, and without Government interference, people all over will use that. If not, 1.3 billion Indians would use it. India is protectionist at trade, but is not closed like China.
But the point remains. At a moment's notice, any foreign company doing business in India can lose their investment if they pissed off Dehli.
It's in my library somewhere that has been packed away into storage. Pretty sure it was an IISS Publication but can't remember if it's MILITARY BALANCE or STRATEGIC REVIEW. I'm damned sure it's between the years 1995 to 1997. You know, the days when the real internet was paper based, and not digital based.
Cynicism is an old age thing. I've lived through clown acts before though Trump is a first. I've seen millions of people demanding rights but very few accepting responsibility. Why is Canada being bossed around by Trump? Because we goddamned don't want to pay for our own defence and want the Americans to give us factories so we can have a higher standards of living.
Like I said before, India is not afraid of losing a war in Pakistan. India is afraid of winning a war in Pakistan. Do you really want another Bangladesh on your borders? Despite your military budgets, it is far cheaper to allow the Pakistani Army to keep Pakistanis in Pakistan.Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!
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Originally posted by Oracle View PostNo I am not giving any credit, I actually complained about US past indulgences. Indo-US relationship is on an upward trajectory, and it will be such barring minor irritants. Not manufacturing or any BS that newspapers like to yell about. You're right about we being at the whims of administration in power, but you forget the various shifts happening in world politics right now. What just happened at the Indo-China border has pushed India to evaluate its decision to not-interfere (non alignment) in other countries internal affairs and maintain a strategic autonomy.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostObama wanted to reverse 123? Source?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostI am against entitlement. And anyway, what I said about compromised media is true then, since it has been happening for far too long. I did hear about 2nd Congo war in passing, but didn't pay much attention to it. But tell me, was/is Congo an US ally? Pakistan was in 1971.
Also, we know that someday that India would be a challenge to our interests. That's just the way things have historically worked. So keeping Pakistan around is somewhat handy.
RE 1971: you do know the USS ENTERPRISE was nearby.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostGoogle just invested $4.5 Billion in Reliance Jio, amongst other things, Google will make a light version of Android that works well on entry level smartphones. See below of all other companies that has invested in Jio till now.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostI am hearing for the last 10 years why can't India build a Google or a FaceBook. Well, how about this, why can't America build a Jio?
Originally posted by Oracle View PostYes, we can come up with a better version of Android, and without Government interference, people all over will use that. If not, 1.3 billion Indians would use it. India is protectionist at trade, but is not closed like China.
Anything else right now, including Huawei, is use at your own risk.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostIf past is any prelude, India learnt from her mistakes in the 80s. It's the other way right now, with US sanctioning China hook, line and sinker.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostWell, I don't have anything to add to that. We pay for our defence, but our politicians are very stingy.
Originally posted by Oracle View PostWhatever we talked about through PMs or in open threads has not worked till now vis-a-vis Pakistan. Give me a solution to stop the flow of terrorism from Pakistan, and I'll change my views.Chimo
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Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostSo you prefer India to have a right to censor us? Because this is what this entire topic is all about! Your right ceases to exist once it harms others who are stronger than you.
Originally posted by WABs_OOE View PostYou ain't no democrat precisely because you do not respect the voter's choice: Case in point - Trump. I don't like the fuck either but I respect the Americans enough not to insult their President with false allegations that have been proven to be without foundation no matter what your attempt in creating lies.
I am quite happy to put my hands up and criticise those who I have foolish voted for in the past if/when they do foolish or underhanded things. Are you saying that a person must a passport of a country to criticise that countries Government? The whole of world criticises illegal actions by other countries... Napoleon, Hitler, Putin/Crimea... C. If this is ALL about India "censoring you" does not China? And why did you raise Kashmir if that is your sole issue?Last edited by snapper; 16 Jul 20,, 07:07.
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