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  • #16
    So LTC Vindman has decided to retire instead.

    Now stories coming out deal with there being some impediments to his promotion. That he would no longer work in his area of expertise. That he would need rehabilitative assignment before going to the War College. Esper has said that the whole list had been approved by the Pentagon before taking it to the White House.

    Now I am puzzled by the part of taking the list to the White House? Anyway the Pentagon saying his promotion proceeded as normal, with no flags, and was approved begs the question what happened behind scenes. I don't think his retirement was a planned thing unless he knew he wasn't going to move up.

    There is more going on and brings to mind Cmdr. Kirk Lippold of the USS Cole. He had been selected for Captain but the Senate denied for several years after that attack. This is one I talked about with our deceased Captain who was there withing days after the attack. The Commander was in no way at fault since he didn't have specific intell, the focused training, the right equipment and scene security to prevent a pre-planned attack. Nor did the rules of engagement allow him to fire first without being fired upon. Taught the Navy not to take things for granted when in a port you think is friendly and to update training. Desertswo was not pleased that he was denied promotion to Captain. The Commander then retired when the Secretary of Navy, in 2007, removed him from the promotion list saying he did not meet the high standards of the Navy despite being absolved. Now the Navy said there were some things he could have done but I haven't been able to learn what they were given the Navy and that the Rules of Engagement were clear and sailors not likely to take it upon themselves to fire without authority had it been recognized.

    Yet what do I know other than I have lots of questions given my diagnostic nature.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
      Sorry, it is not directed at you but surfgun combining his comment with your observation and wondering what flock he flies with.
      Got it, thanks.

      Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer though.
      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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      • #18
        Sadly Trump and his cult members have got what they wanted - forcing an honourable man out of the US Army. I've said it before - there is no 'bottom' here. There is nothing so disgusting or disgraceful that it can't be supported or excused. And the yare only getting started. If Trump gets re-elected this stuff will look like a schoolyard spat.
        sigpic

        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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        • #19
          Now stories coming out deal with there being some impediments to his promotion. That he would no longer work in his area of expertise. That he would need rehabilitative assignment before going to the War College. Esper has said that the whole list had been approved by the Pentagon before taking it to the White House.

          None of this was a result of his job performance or his expertise. All were new, artificial barriers put in his way by the DOD/Army political secretariat to encourage him to just go away.

          He could have fought it out but why bother.

          And if in a future administration he is asked to serve I'd tell them to GFY...the institution failed him, not the other way around.

          If he wants to stay in DC there are plenty of think tanks where his expertise would be put to great use.

          And just FYI a LOT of the active duty military I work with and communicate with are royally pissed over this. Crozier and Vindman in the same few months are causing many to rethink staying past 20.
          “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
          Mark Twain

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          • #20
            frankly it's the Department leadership that's pissing me off the most. Trump will always Trump, but that doesn't mean our supposedly apolitical institutions need to roll over on this.
            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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            • #21
              Originally posted by astralis View Post
              frankly it's the Department leadership that's pissing me off the most. Trump will always Trump, but that doesn't mean our supposedly apolitical institutions need to roll over on this.
              Although I do tend to blame Trump. He is the conductor. He is the one who has decimated ethics, principals, and honor. That then filters down to the players. So do they play what he wants or just go along with the song?

              I once read something asking how "good" Germans became "bad" Germans under Hitler and did his bidding. I feel another adjective should be added to good, and that is good but weak. The people in the leadership that are pissing you off are weak.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post

                And just FYI a LOT of the active duty military I work with and communicate with are royally pissed over this. Crozier and Vindman in the same few months are causing many to rethink staying past 20.
                Keep us informed. I, for one, would be interested in how many decide that should nothing change, god forbid, after Nov. 3rd. Yet, if there is a change in Presidents then is there going to be a re-evaluation?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                  Keep us informed. I, for one, would be interested in how many decide that should nothing change, god forbid, after Nov. 3rd. Yet, if there is a change in Presidents then is there going to be a re-evaluation?
                  I seriously doubt it but I'm not sure.

                  Many feel the institutional failures have been mounting. The Vanessa Guillen debacle enraged a LOT of them...abject failure of leadership and failure to live the Army values. Vindman on top of it has been hard 1-2.

                  A LOT of these folks are royally pissed.
                  “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                  Mark Twain

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                  • #24
                    A little more on the subject.

                    https://taskandpurpose.com/news/alex...dman-promotion
                    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                    Mark Twain

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Albany Rifles View Post
                      Why is the list sent to the White House if the Senate does the approval?

                      Who looks at the list in the White House if sending the list is normal procedure? Yet, if normal procedure it has already moved out of the military sphere and into the political sphere.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                        Why is the list sent to the White House if the Senate does the approval?

                        Who looks at the list in the White House if sending the list is normal procedure? Yet, if normal procedure it has already moved out of the military sphere and into the political sphere.
                        Per a quick Wiki glance, legally, these are appointments by the President, same as if the President was appointing a new Cabinet Secretary.
                        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
                          Per a quick Wiki glance, legally, these are appointments by the President, same as if the President was appointing a new Cabinet Secretary.
                          Now if it were Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, or Obama this would probably be a run of the mill thing. Approve, stamp, move on. However, we have an psychologically abnormal President who doesn't forget the smallest slight and needs to retaliate against said person. Does this now reek and not from Duckworth who might actually understand how Trump's mind works even if you don't?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                            Now if it were Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, or Obama this would probably be a run of the mill thing. Approve, stamp, move on. However, we have an psychologically abnormal President who doesn't forget the smallest slight and needs to retaliate against said person. Does this now reek and not from Duckworth who might actually understand how Trump's mind works even if you don't?
                            Confirmations should not be rubber-stamped. And it doesn't matter if the institution vetted out the appointment, the Senate and the White House themselves are the ones Constitutionally obligated to review these appointments. If it turns out these people are nut-jobs, the responsibility lies with the the Senate and the White House.
                            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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                            • #29
                              Okay, having been involved with the Army for Almost 45 years here is the process....

                              1. Each service has a set number of slots by grade by service authorized by Congress....they are usually only for Regular and not Reserve service but let's not worry about that. Company grade (lieutenants/ensigns/captains) are handled at the service level; field grades are what get looked at by the Senate.

                              2. Each service holds their version of a selection board. Those results are tallied and then tabulated #1 through #N for order of merit. Reviews are also made to ensure no negative actions are pending for members on the list which may have recently come to light.

                              3. The lists are then forwarded to the White House for a pro forma review. Normally the White House will look at 3 & 4 star appointments but leave the rest up to the services...kind of a tip of the hat to recognize 2 star and below are akin to the professional civil service and who keep the Department running...just with a bit more application of violence and playing with cooler toys.

                              4. White House then forwards to Senate for confirmation. Senate Confirms and returns, officers notified and champagne is uncorked.


                              Previously I know of about 5 cases where things were held up...4 times the Colonel to Brigadier General Army lists were held up because matters have come to light on individuals on the board lists. 3 of them I read about in Army Times. About 7 years ago a Colonel who I worked for was an Active Reservist and was under investigation for some questionable activity in Afghanistan. This came to my attention because the sister of a good friend's promotion was being held up to brigadier general because she was on the same list. Bottomline, the dude turned out to be a dirtbag. Name pulled, everyone promoted with back date and back pay and problem solved. Typical model.

                              I have NEVER heard of a case where an individual, in essence, got puled from a list despite exceptional ratings (which is what LTC Vindman received on his officer evaluations because he did perform IAW his oath of office) because they ran crossways with someone within the White House. My dude answered a legal subpoena which he was required to do. If he HAD refused his name would have been DOA on The Hill....but i don't think that's why he did what he did.
                              “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                              Mark Twain

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                              • #30
                                Yeah, obviously my background is audit/accounting/finance, not specifically government agencies, but this process does not seem appropriate. The relevant legal opinion is that these officers are embodying the sovereign authority of the United States, which is why they require confirmation. You don't need 3 day C-SPAN hearings for every position, but there should at least be a legally required GAO certification that the process is above-board, which should include auditing a certain number of selections to ensure that the process is being followed.

                                This should not be taken as an excuse for anything the administration is, just my expectations for minimum oversight and due diligence. Maybe the Senate historically operates in this fashion, but that doesn't make it right.

                                "We've always done it this way" is pretty triggering, to use the new-fangled language.
                                Last edited by GVChamp; 10 Jul 20,, 17:51.
                                "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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