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Thread: Removing the cancer that is Woodrow Wilson from the position of honor in the US.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Eric,

    Don't get me started on the abject failure of Wilson as a wartime leader. Arsenal of Democracy my ass! The ONLY reason US industry was halfway ready is because of contracts they had had with Great Britain from 1915 onward.
    Upvote!

    And the same can said of the Second World War's Arsenal of Democracy. Thanks to Roosevelt and his dithering and procrastinating, the US would've (once again) been playing catch-up when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

    It was the British and French purchase orders that enabled US industry to get up on its feet and hit the ground running when the War Department came calling later on.

    And it was this guy that largely made it all possible, AND coined the term "Arsenal Of Democracy": The only person to go from civilian to Lieutenant General in one fell swoop.

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    Joe, while Knudsen had a big impact it was something else which had a greater impact. In the early 1920s the Army opened the Army Industrial College. The mission of the school was to bring Army leaders and industry executives together to study the mobilization capabilities of the US...based on the abject failures seen in World War 1. The AIC students produced an annual report outlining what industry could build what. Each class updated the previous year's plan.

    When France fell in June 1940 Marshall turned to the plan the Class of 1940 had produced and used his supplemental funding he received in August 1940 as seed corn to start retooling based on the plan. Knudsen came in and took over the execution and refinement of the plan. Knudsen DID NOT have a cold start. The Army had a plan to execute towards.

    FYI, the supplemental for FY 40 that Marshall received in AUG 40 exceeded all Army budgets....combined...from 1921-1940.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Joe, while Knudsen had a big impact it was something else which had a greater impact. In the early 1920s the Army opened the Army Industrial College. The mission of the school was to bring Army leaders and industry executives together to study the mobilization capabilities of the US...based on the abject failures seen in World War 1. The AIC students produced an annual report outlining what industry could build what. Each class updated the previous year's plan.

    When France fell in June 1940 Marshall turned to the plan the Class of 1940 had produced and used his supplemental funding he received in August 1940 as seed corn to start retooling based on the plan. Knudsen came in and took over the execution and refinement of the plan. Knudsen DID NOT have a cold start. The Army had a plan to execute towards.

    FYI, the supplemental for FY 40 that Marshall received in AUG 40 exceeded all Army budgets....combined...from 1921-1940.
    No arguement here, but the Army's proposals to industry (meaning Knudsen) were vague and virtually unusable for manufacturing purposes: "We want an army of X number of men, ready by X date" to which Knudsen kept pleading "Tell us....how many pieces [of each kind of equipment do you need]"). They also failed to take into account things like economies of scale.

    Having said all of that, I'm sure you've read in far more detail about it than I have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Again, as I said, his name has been problematic within academia....which is what this entire thread is about...for decades. And there have been multiple questions within the field about his governance, especially his totally dismantling of the progressive (and I use that in the 1900s meaning that TR used) initiatives of the Roosevelt Administration, especially with African Americans in civil service.

    This article from several years ago certainly lay out ample reason for why a private university may want to change a name.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/20...-contd/417990/
    I spend too much time online, so I am familiar with this. However, that particularly article is not exactly a resounding scholarly rebuke of anything Wilson did, because it's not really much of anything beyond some snippets. The historian addition at the end of the article notes that Wilson's ideas were not novel to him and were basically the understanding of the historical profession at the time.

    Wilson was lock-stock-and-barrel part of the Progressive Movement. He was big on anti-trust, he was big on fighting party machines, and he was especially big on bringing modern banking. All of this is extremely important for modernizing the US into what it became.

    I don't mind re-evaluation and making sure we understand the flaws of our prior leaders, but prior generations, the ones who actually had to do the work to make the US into what it is today, regarded guys like Wilson and Jackson as basically heroes.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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    Wilson was lock-stock-and-barrel part of the Progressive Movement. He was big on anti-trust, he was big on fighting party machines, and he was especially big on bringing modern banking. All of this is extremely important for modernizing the US into what it became.
    he was part of the Progressive movement, but the Southern Democrat branch of Progressivism.

    which was significantly different from the TR-style Northern branch of Progressivism.

    IE, both men were anti-trust, but the reason why Wilson was anti-trust was because he viewed big businesses as a threat to his vision of Southern agrarianism. he was a fan of the Jeffersonian fantasy of gentlemen farmers.

    Teddy was anti-trust because he viewed certain trusts as challenging democratic executive power, which he would not tolerate. TR was one of the last Unionist Republicans and thought of the Jeffersonian fantasy as a quaint 18th century idiocy that was holding the US back.

    current-day Progressivism is of course different from either, but the essential base is much closer to the Progressivism of TR than Wilson.

    so yeah, I have no qualms about cancel culture going after Wilson the racist, incompetent President.

    TR is a different animal, of course. no one touches Teddy!
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    No arguement here, but the Army's proposals to industry (meaning Knudsen) were vague and virtually unusable for manufacturing purposes: "We want an army of X number of men, ready by X date" to which Knudsen kept pleading "Tell us....how many pieces [of each kind of equipment do you need]"). They also failed to take into account things like economies of scale.

    Having said all of that, I'm sure you've read in far more detail about it than I have.
    Joe,

    We are symapitco. FDR did the right thing by bringing in Knudsen....that was the government's responsibility and not the War Departments. And the Army didn't need to consider the needs of the Navy and other tasks (see Manhattan Engineering District) which were the government's job.

    So bottomline is the Army could have done better but was in a much better shape than in 1916.

    Also what complicated matters was the conflicting and changes in priorities...Germany First...but meanwhile 2 offensives occur in the Pacific before the Army engages the Germans...it would be early 1943 before the US Army ever tangles with the Germans in North Africa...months after New Guinea and the Solomons.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by GVChamp View Post
    I spend too much time online, so I am familiar with this. However, that particularly article is not exactly a resounding scholarly rebuke of anything Wilson did, because it's not really much of anything beyond some snippets. The historian addition at the end of the article notes that Wilson's ideas were not novel to him and were basically the understanding of the historical profession at the time.

    Wilson was lock-stock-and-barrel part of the Progressive Movement. He was big on anti-trust, he was big on fighting party machines, and he was especially big on bringing modern banking. All of this is extremely important for modernizing the US into what it became.

    I don't mind re-evaluation and making sure we understand the flaws of our prior leaders, but prior generations, the ones who actually had to do the work to make the US into what it is today, regarded guys like Wilson and Jackson as basically heroes.
    I just picked that one article cause I was in a hurry....but the wholesale dismemberment of the Black Civil Service set them back for decades. His judicial appointments were also very conservative and fought against the New Deal a decade later.

    This is not new ground for me....I found Wilson problematic when I was an undergrad in the 1970s and majoring in 20th Century US History...and even more so when I was in grad school in early 1990s when I was able to see that he was a product of The Lost Cause generation.

    All of this said....Princeton is a private institution and cane make any changes it wishes IAW their trustees, alumni & endowers.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    he was part of the Progressive movement, but the Southern Democrat branch of Progressivism.

    which was significantly different from the TR-style Northern branch of Progressivism.

    IE, both men were anti-trust, but the reason why Wilson was anti-trust was because he viewed big businesses as a threat to his vision of Southern agrarianism. he was a fan of the Jeffersonian fantasy of gentlemen farmers.

    Teddy was anti-trust because he viewed certain trusts as challenging democratic executive power, which he would not tolerate. TR was one of the last Unionist Republicans and thought of the Jeffersonian fantasy as a quaint 18th century idiocy that was holding the US back.

    current-day Progressivism is of course different from either, but the essential base is much closer to the Progressivism of TR than Wilson.

    so yeah, I have no qualms about cancel culture going after Wilson the racist, incompetent President.

    TR is a different animal, of course. no one touches Teddy!
    Wilson having some mistaken visions about the future of American industry doesn't discredit Wilson anymore than Jefferson's mistaken views discredit Jefferson. He still delivered on a whole host of Progressive reforms without which modern America would not be as we see it today. And even if America were industrializing, a huge chunk of the US was still rural and still agricultural and still needed better financing systems than what the 19th century provided, which Wilson advanced.

    TR may be one of the greats, but the tail end of his Presidency saw his influence wane to little. He is also not without sin, anymore than any of the other American Presidents. In particular his Latin American policy was a complete disaster (though, again, not unique to Teddy!) and the Philippines policy inhumane (in which Teddy should receive a good portion of the blame).

    AR, I don't see how Princeton being a private institution should change anyone's opinion about said institution. I'm not demanding they ask me permission to put a name on a building anymore than I am demanding that Community put its episode of D&D back up because Ken Jeong dressed up as a Dark Elf.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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    GVC,

    Not saying it should change your opinion. Just that our opinions about their decision are no more than a fart in the wind to them!
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    Joe,

    We are symapitco. FDR did the right thing by bringing in Knudsen....that was the government's responsibility and not the War Departments. And the Army didn't need to consider the needs of the Navy and other tasks (see Manhattan Engineering District) which were the government's job.

    So bottomline is the Army could have done better but was in a much better shape than in 1916.

    Also what complicated matters was the conflicting and changes in priorities...Germany First...but meanwhile 2 offensives occur in the Pacific before the Army engages the Germans...it would be early 1943 before the US Army ever tangles with the Germans in North Africa...months after New Guinea and the Solomons.
    No question about it :-)
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    GVC,

    Not saying it should change your opinion. Just that our opinions about their decision are no more than a fart in the wind to them!
    Well, hell, there's people who actually pay for my opinion and still don't listen, so that I can get used to!
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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