Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

COVID-2019 in America, effect on politics and economy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    And what are the states supposed to do ?

    Manage this disease within their jurisdiction isn't it. Their responsibility.

    I'm not very sympathetic to all this finger pointing going on you know.

    Your answer strikes me way too top down.

    States need supplies, ask the feds otherwise get on with it.

    What Trump says is pretty much irrelevant. He's in election mode. He going to say all sorts of things. What he cannot do is prevent states doing their job.

    If the numbers are going up its the states that have to manage it. If they don't they screwed up not Trump. If they succeed they can claim the credit.
    I still question whether or not you've actually lived in the United States for any length of time. You attempt to speak authoritatively about this country and how it works, but what you're saying is just bullshit from start to finish.
    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
      I still question whether or not you've actually lived in the United States for any length of time. You attempt to speak authoritatively about this country and how it works, but what you're saying is just bullshit from start to finish.
      No, what i find bullshit is this continuous targeting of your president for everything that is wrong.

      States that screw up are responsible for the mess they create. Simple as.

      You want autonomy but no responsibility

      Cute!

      Comment


      • And what are the states supposed to do ?

        Manage this disease within their jurisdiction isn't it. Their responsibility.

        I'm not very sympathetic to all this finger pointing going on you know.
        it is within their jurisdiction, but frankly this is a national-level emergency which means it should have a national-level response.

        when the US goes to war, it's not New York or South Carolina or California going to war, it is the entire United States.

        so state governors should not be in the position where they're literally bidding on the international marketplace for PPE, hiding it from the feds because they're afraid the feds will take it for their own use.

        this is ridiculous.

        What he cannot do is prevent states doing their job.
        yes he can, and he has.

        all this crap about not wearing masks-- that is on HIM. he made it a culture war thing; other Republican leaders are busy telling people to wear masks, and for a long time, he was the one guy telling people don't bother.

        he's the head of the Republican Party right now, and by making this a political issue he's made it much harder for governors of either persuasion to implement basic health protections.

        If the numbers are going up its the states that have to manage it. If they don't they screwed up not Trump. If they succeed they can claim the credit.
        doesn't work that way.

        for instance: New York was begging for federal PPE assistance early on. Trump sat on that assistance for WEEKS because he hates Cuomo and de Blasio.

        Florida, with a Trump friendly DeSantis, asked for PPE and literally got it within hours.

        on the flip-hand side, after New York City finally controlled the outbreak and got its numbers down, that was precisely when Pence and other members of the administration started going around telling everyone how they controlled COVID-19.

        bottom-line: states have an important part to play, no doubt. maybe even the most important part (although in an ideal world, this should not be the case given the vast resource disparities between, say, New York and Mississippi).

        however, the federal government has by far the most resources, coordination ability, and messaging capability. the CDC, FEMA -- these are all -federal- agencies. the military is run by the Commander-in-Chief.

        under a good President, the relatively de-centralized American system has definite advantages-- learning from innovation at the state-level and deploying it nationally.

        under an incompetent one, especially during a pandemic, it's a recipe for utter chaos and inefficient response.

        i'll let you figure out which situation best describes things right now.
        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
          No, what i find bullshit is this continuous targeting of your president for everything that is wrong.
          Click image for larger version

Name:	Capture.JPG
Views:	2
Size:	36.2 KB
ID:	1479097
          “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
            This is the bullshit that government agencies are up against:

            If they flat out refute Trump's unhinged mountain of bullshit and disinformation, they're in deep trouble, from both ends: His violence-prone cult and the "man" himself.

            No wonder Hahn kept ducking and weaving. Contradicting Trump would've been a death sentence.
            Because Trump ain't wrong.

            From https://www.worldometers.info/corona...=homeAdvegas1?

            99% mild cases. 1% serious or critical.

            Now what's missing an extremely important is that these are world wide numbers and each country has its own quirks that may or may not be applicable to the US. Hahn cannot come straight out and say Trump is wrong because he isn't but Hahn has the responsibility to put things in context. Unfortunately, he's bad at it. He's not like Fauci who could dance around Trump's assertions without publically making a fool of Trump.
            Chimo

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              Because Trump ain't wrong.
              "Totally Harmless"? Sir, excuse me, but that is simply not true. Trump is DEAD wrong.

              Even if Trump had said "mild" (he didn't), the fact remains that according to WHO, 20% of those diagnosed with COVID-19 progress to severe disease, including pneumonia and respiratory failure. Those with mild or no symptoms, meanwhile, could spread the virus to others.

              Furthermore, hospitals are beginning to get overrun here in Florida, thanks to Trump and his sycophantic stooges like "Governor" DeSantis opening up too soon to get Trump's numbers back up.

              Hospitals don't get overrun by something "totally harmless". Trump was talking out of his ass as usual and it's literally killing people.


              All 16 Hospitals in Pinellas County are Now in Divert-Mode for Covid Patients via Ambulance

              Advent, Palms of Pasadena, Morton Plant, Mease Countryside, St. Peters, Northside all have zero ICU bed availability; St. Anthony's has one bed. Mease Dunedin has 3 beds available in their ICU. These are according to the ACHA data website.

              Hillsborough has zero ICU beds in both Advent Hospitals, both Kindred Hospitals, main St. Jos; S. Florida and another St. Jos have one bed; Tampa General has two beds as does Memorial and another St. Jos facility.

              We are officially in trouble in Pinellas County and Hillsborough County.
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                "Totally Harmless"? Sir, excuse me, but that is simply not true. Trump is DEAD wrong.
                I was talking about Hahn. Trump is a layman and he speaks a layman's language. Hahn isn't and he knows the data that Trump saw. Hahn could not state out right that Trump is wrong because the data does not support it. There are extreme quirks to the data and it is up to Hahn and others like him to really emphasize what the data really means and not some layman's interreputation.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  I was talking about Hahn.
                  Sir, that's not what you said.

                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  Because Trump ain't wrong.
                  “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                    Sir, that's not what you said.
                    And I stand by that. You notice that I immeidately pointed out the data. It's not Trump's job to make sense of the quirks of the data (but it also ain't his job to make far off conclusions that data do not support). Trump's layman view of the data is just that: layman. It ain't wrong but it certainly ain't right. That is why Hahn could not contradict Trump BUT he cannot dumb the data down more than Trump did. Problem is that Trump dumb it down too much ... what did you expect.

                    Also note the data is worldwide. Once you get into the US, it's 91%/9% respectively, so there are quirks to the data that Hahn has to explain but to say Trump is flat out wrong is just not supported by the data.

                    You stated that Hahn is in fear of his job if he contradicts Trump. I'm saying that Hahn has to explain the data better and that Trump's layman's interreptation isn't wrong ... but it is certainly isn't right.
                    Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 06 Jul 20,, 02:47.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      it is within their jurisdiction, but frankly this is a national-level emergency which means it should have a national-level response.

                      when the US goes to war, it's not New York or South Carolina or California going to war, it is the entire United States.

                      so state governors should not be in the position where they're literally bidding on the international marketplace for PPE, hiding it from the feds because they're afraid the feds will take it for their own use.

                      this is ridiculous.
                      This was the case back in march. What is the situation right now ?

                      If the feds were pinching them it meant the national stocks were low and there were others that needed it more.

                      if you're cynical, it means they give it to the state with the party or leader they like.

                      I'm sticking with the first reason.


                      Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      yes he can, and he has.

                      all this crap about not wearing masks-- that is on HIM. he made it a culture war thing; other Republican leaders are busy telling people to wear masks, and for a long time, he was the one guy telling people don't bother.

                      he's the head of the Republican Party right now, and by making this a political issue he's made it much harder for governors of either persuasion to implement basic health protections.
                      Mandate people wear masks. They did it in NYC. Re-route around the damage.

                      Funny thing about the states is counties can enact their own laws which can differ from ones next door. There is loads of power at the local level.

                      Now i can see why a mayor or governor might not want to push too hard on rules here because it makes them unpopular. Lax enforcement.

                      So let's point the finger at C-in-C because he too is concerned about that.

                      Two groups of pols pointing fingers leaving the citizens high & dry. What can you do then ? courts, is that option open.


                      Originally posted by astralis View Post
                      doesn't work that way.

                      for instance: New York was begging for federal PPE assistance early on. Trump sat on that assistance for WEEKS because he hates Cuomo and de Blasio.

                      Florida, with a Trump friendly DeSantis, asked for PPE and literally got it within hours.

                      on the flip-hand side, after New York City finally controlled the outbreak and got its numbers down, that was precisely when Pence and other members of the administration started going around telling everyone how they controlled COVID-19.

                      bottom-line: states have an important part to play, no doubt. maybe even the most important part (although in an ideal world, this should not be the case given the vast resource disparities between, say, New York and Mississippi).

                      however, the federal government has by far the most resources, coordination ability, and messaging capability. the CDC, FEMA -- these are all -federal- agencies. the military is run by the Commander-in-Chief.

                      under a good President, the relatively de-centralized American system has definite advantages-- learning from innovation at the state-level and deploying it nationally.

                      under an incompetent one, especially during a pandemic, it's a recipe for utter chaos and inefficient response.

                      i'll let you figure out which situation best describes things right now.
                      I'm starting to think if this disease hit in a non-election year that you guys would have been better off : (

                      Your chief would not be lobbying for an extension and be more focused on the job at hand.

                      Be that as it may, bolded bit is the point i'm trying to make.

                      If things go wrong in my city i'm holding the city council responsible. They will then pass the buck up to state and back and forth.

                      What i'm not doing is pointing at the centre. TODAY. That's what i'm doing. Not in March.

                      The problem with NYC was getting hit hard early and fast. Who could provide what NYC wanted. If feds are pinching from others then it meant NYC was sol.

                      Wasn't just NYC, look at Europe. Same issues there too. The first two months had every one scrambling.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Jul 20,, 03:02.

                      Comment


                      • DE,

                        This was the case back in march. What is the situation right now ?

                        If the feds were pinching them it meant the national stocks were low and there were others that needed it more.

                        if you're cynical, it means they give it to the state with the party or leader they like.

                        I'm sticking with the first reason.
                        you can, but the evidence overwhelmingly shows that the states whom have Trump-friendly governors got PPE first.

                        Mandate people wear masks. They did it in NYC. Re-route around the damage.

                        Funny thing about the states is counties can enact their own laws which can differ from ones next door. There is loads of power at the local level.

                        Now i can see why a mayor or governor might not want to push too hard on rules here because it makes them unpopular. Lax enforcement.

                        So let's point the finger at C-in-C because he too is concerned about that.

                        Two groups of pols pointing fingers leaving the citizens high & dry. What can you do then ? courts, is that option open.
                        you can mandate, but it's much, much easier to get results with voluntary compliance.

                        Trump has not made it easy to get to voluntary compliance because he's essentially telling his base that it's fake, the virus is under control, masks are of dubious use, etc.

                        the governor of Texas made masks mandatory, and now there's a reaction against him.

                        the C-in-C should get the finger pointed at him, the middle finger, because this is again something that he could have easily done months ago.

                        he's advocating half-heartedly for masks NOW because Republican states are now at the center of the crisis, and GOP party leaders are -begging- him to do this.

                        Your chief would not be lobbying for an extension and be more focused on the job at hand.
                        when has he -ever- been focused on the job at hand?

                        he was warned about this in December and January and chose to ignore it.

                        he's always been terrible at crises because ultimately what matters to him is his own political future, not the country. look at his performance when Hurricane Maria hit.

                        Wasn't just NYC, look at Europe. Same issues there too. The first two months had every one scrambling.
                        and now Europe is getting their numbers under control, while we are not.

                        because the LEADERSHIP of the country has not implemented the lessons learned in NYC elsewhere.
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • for the first, here's an example of what I mean.

                          from today's NYT.

                          Phoenix has a testing crisis, and FEMA refuses to help, the mayor says.
                          Mayor Kate Gallego of Phoenix said on Sunday that with cases and death counts soaring in Arizona, testing sites in her city and surrounding Maricopa County are overwhelmed, but the Federal Emergency Management Agency has rebuffed her pleas for help.

                          She raised the issue on the ABC program “This Week,” saying that it “feels like they’re declaring victory while we’re in crisis mode.”

                          In an interview later in the day, Ms. Gallego, a Democrat, said she had been trying since April to get more testing resources for Phoenix, both from FEMA and from the private sector. But testing, she says, remains woefully inadequate, especially for those who lack health insurance.

                          “We are the largest city not to have received this type of investment,” Ms. Gallego said, noting that FEMA had set up testing sites in Houston, Los Angeles and elsewhere. “And you can see it in the increasing rate of positives.”
                          ADVERTISEMENT

                          Continue reading the main story

                          More than 20 percent of tests in Arizona are coming back positive now, she said. “Public health officials tell me that when you’re doing the appropriate amount of testing, it should be around 2 percent,” she said.

                          An aide to the mayor said that FEMA had responded to the city’s most recent request by saying the agency was “getting out of the testing business.” Maricopa County officials were told the same thing when they asked FEMA for help, the mayor said.

                          Cases have doubled in Arizona in recent weeks; more than 3,400 new cases were announced Sunday. The state marked a record on Saturday with 3,182 confirmed and suspected virus hospitalizations.

                          “I hope they understand what it’s like out here,” Mayor Gallego said. “I wish I could have the president with me as people fill their cars with gas so they can wait in lines for eight hours, while they’re sick and it’s 110 degrees outside,” to get a test.

                          “This is not just a Phoenix problem,” she said. “I think many communities and people across both parties would like to see the federal government play a role.”

                          Editors’ Picks

                          America’s Enduring Caste System

                          How to Make Your Tech Last Longer

                          The Long, Unhappy History of Working From Home
                          Continue reading the main story

                          ADVERTISEMENT

                          Continue reading the main story

                          Vice President Mike Pence, who visited Phoenix on Wednesday, said last week that testing was readily available to anyone in the country who needed it. His office referred questions to FEMA, which did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

                          “We do have one hopeful note,” Ms. Gallego said Sunday afternoon. After she raised the issue on TV, she said, “The White House reached out and said they’re interested in more information, and would try to see what they can do.”
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                            DE,



                            he can do -a lot-.

                            for starters:

                            encourage Americans to wear masks from the start.

                            not spread disinformation and false hope about the virus suddenly going away.

                            put political pressure on governors to follow public health guidance.

                            this is pretty minimal stuff, this doesn't require Roosevelt or Lincoln-levels of leadership to execute this.

                            the CDC can do the -technical- stuff, like push public health advice, coordinate vaccine development, assist states with contact tracing, etc.

                            but it's on the President and the administration to do the -political- stuff.
                            That's a nice list of what a competent, honest, thoughtful, intelligent political leader could do.

                            The question, however, was "what can Trump do?"
                            Trust me?
                            I'm an economist!

                            Comment


                            • Trump being able to do more does not mean he is the relevant primary actor, or that masks are the only (or even most) relevant metric. California and Oregon didn't roll out more mandatory mask requirements till June, long after it should have been obvious that masks are a good idea...and those aren't conservative states.
                              Also, loathe as I am to link CNN
                              https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/26/polit...sis/index.html
                              There is obviously a correlation between mask-wearing and COVID reproduction, but it is foolish to take masks as dominant. California has good mask compliance but it is exploding in case counts. IL is on the same level as TX, FL, but IL is doing alright, and TX/FL are not. Mask compliance is poor in Indiana and Wisconsin (anecdotally speaking) and they are not outbreak states. The best states in New England are the states without mask mandates.

                              Also, this story is still being written. Texas has a crapton of cases, but that's not the same as a crap-ton of deaths. NY was a complete disaster, and that disaster is not Trump-induced.
                              "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post

                                Also, this story is still being written. Texas has a crapton of cases, but that's not the same as a crap-ton of deaths. NY was a complete disaster, and that disaster is not Trump-induced.
                                Since you say New York was a complete disaster, while Texas isn't in deaths, then tell me why New York was. I already know but am interested in if you know the answer. Consequently, the 4.6% death rate may go down because of that explanation but then again it is too early to know down by how much since deaths lag fairly far behind the initial new cases which you ought to know.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X