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Thread: COVID-2019 in America, effect on politics and economy

  1. #1306
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    but given what his own doctors and intel agencies were telling him, I say that Trump screwed up in the beginning too. I could forgive January, no one in the West took it that seriously then. but February, he should have woken up. and he didn't. he didn't wake up until mid-March.

    and Americans are paying the price.
    The problem that i'm highlighting is no one woke up in Feb. WHO sounds its highest alert on Jan 30 but where is the action ?

    Trump stops flights from China and is told he should not do that. He is not doing it because PHEIC got announced he did it because China locked down a week earlier.

    This is further compounded by WHO saying how well China is containing the problem.

    No one need worry then isn't it ? China got it all under control.

    We all got complacent at that point when we should have been more alert. Trump highlights this in his letter.

    Nobody was even seriously considering stopping flights until March let alone instituting lock downs. Then the modelers showed up and said millions dead otherwise.

    Your testing guys got going late Jan, the plan was test kits avaialble by mid-Feb. But there were glitches and component shortages which meant test kits would only be available over a month later.

    Part of the reason for deaths is people being told to come back when symptoms were more obvious. Test kits weren't sensitve enough. This only meant the viral load increased and it became increasingly harder to save them. A pattern I suspect got repeated in many countries in Europe. In India in some instances people died by the time the test results came back.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Jun 20, at 18:48.

  2. #1307
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Oh, we were so not ready. In fact, we swallowed the WHO koolaide a lot longer than the US. Simple numbers tell you that we're on par with the US. We're at 7K+ deaths at ~10% of the US population. We're on par with the US per capita. Our saving grace if you call it that is that we don't have a NYC hub like the US.


    There's more but we were just as fucked up as Trump's clown act. We closed our borders a lot later than Trump and our lockdowns were later. We keep swallowing the WHO koolaide and as you can see we kept praising China long after Trump stopped. And be advised, because of the Five Eyes, we had the same intel. Trump ain't the only one to ignore the intel.
    Not a single mention of PHEIC in here despite being more attentive than the US to the WHO.

    If Trump is so bad how come the Euros didn't get it either.

    The highest alert level sounded by the WHO on Jan 30 and the world does not get it.

    Tedros is using that line in defense of the org. Warned the world in time he said.

    So i went and looked at Part 1 of your article

    Jan. 30: The WHO declares a global health emergency. In China, the virus has infected nearly 8,000 and killed at least 170. There are now 98 cases in 18 other countries. The WHO’sGhebreyesuspraises the Chinese response to the outbreak: “The speed with which China detected the outbreak, isolated the virus, sequenced the genome and shared it with WHO and the world are very impressive, and beyond words. … Let me be clear: this declaration is not a vote of no confidence in China. On the contrary, WHO continues to have confidence in China’s capacity to control the outbreak… In many ways, China is actually setting a new standard for outbreak response. It’s not an exaggeration.”

    Ghebreyesusalso tweets in support of the WHO’s open borders policy: “This is the time for facts, not fear. This is the time for science, not rumours. This is the time for solidarity, not stigma.”

    Jan. 30. In Taiwan, Wang reports, four million masks are produced daily by local manufacturers. Of the masks produced, 1.4 million each day are allotted to hospitals and medical workers, with remaining 2.6 million for consumer sales. Mask prices are currently fixed at NT$8 apiece (USD $0.27). Taiwan’s High Prosecutors Office starts a nationwide campaign to stop profiteering by any seller raising prices on disease prevention products; penalty is one to seven years in jail and a fine of up to NT$5 million (US$167,000).

    Jan. 30: A Change.org petition starts calling for Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus of the WHO to resign.

    Jan 31: In a video update to diplomats, the WHO’s representative in Beijing, Gauden Galea praises China’s response to the virus and calls on other countries not to step out of line with the WHO recommendations, a key concern for Beijing, which is furious that countries are beginning to close their borders to Chinese travellers, reports Nathan Vanderklippe of the Globe & Mail: “Any United Nations member country ‘will have to scientifically justify’ any measure that ‘goes beyond UN recommendation.'”
    Where is Tam and why isn't she saying anything on this day ? Chief Public health officer of Canada

    What is Fauci doing at this point in time ?

    These two are the ones in the know.

    March 11: Dr. Theresa Tam,Canada’s chief public health officer, at Parliamentary Health Committee: “The WHO did call this a pandemic today, but the key message is that all countries can still change the course of this pandemic by doing a number of things. I will go through them very quickly, but I believe we’re already doing them.”
    Here we go, they heard the pandemic word.

    On the issue of travel bans, Tam again says she does not support them, bringing up Canada’s legal duty to the WHO:

    “Right now, let’s say, WHO does not recommend travel bans, and any measures that a country is to take must not be out of proportion to the risk and must not inappropriately impact travel and trade.

    We are a signatory to the international health regulations and we’ll be called to account if we do anything different.
    Canada's legal duty to the WHO ??

    This is very interesting. If the WHO says no travel bans then members are obliged to comply. So Trump slamming the door on China was basically contravening WHO.

    That is a hell of a lot of power to influence policy by this org.

    Tam says that Canada is working on this with the WHO. “They know they have to get to the bottom of this, but we do know that even people with mild symptoms don’t transmit very readily. Could they? It’s possible, but that’s not what drives an actual epidemic … I think we have to be reasonable in our public measures and just balance out the risks and benefits.

    In terms of the impacts, they are not simply health impacts, but psychological and other health impacts, as well as non-health impacts, those being societal and economic as well.”

    Tam repeatedly stresses that her recommendations come from the World Health Organization and are based on science. But in its 2019 study on best practices for pandemics, the WHO makes clear that more than science goes into decisions on everything from border controls to mass public mask wearing.

    In making public policy recommendations on a pandemic, the WHO factors in science, but also cultural values, cost benefit analysis for any measure, ethics, public acceptance, feasibility and resource implications.
    I agree Canada acted no different to the US. Even more faithfully folowing all the WHO recommendations.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jun 20, at 12:43.

  3. #1308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    What is Fauci doing at this point in time ?
    Fauci was pushing for a lockdown in Feb

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...i-pushback.cnn

    He and Birx were met with pushback. He didn't say it but the person doing the pushback was Dr Redfield of the CDC. Redfield believed the CDC could contain the outbreak. The numbers the Americans had at that point in time would suggest that Redfield was right and Fauci and Birx were wrong.

  4. #1309
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Fauci was pushing for a lockdown in Feb

    https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...i-pushback.cnn

    He and Birx were met with pushback. He didn't say it but the person doing the pushback was Dr Redfield of the CDC. Redfield believed the CDC could contain the outbreak. The numbers the Americans had at that point in time would suggest that Redfield was right and Fauci and Birx were wrong.
    Yeah, when in Feb ? 3rd week of Feb.

    PHEIC declared on Jan 30 by WHO. The time for these public health officers to be making waves is in the first week of Feb.

    But the WHO never said "Hey guys, we just sounded our highest alert warning, DO SOME THING!"

    So nobody got the message, the health departments of most countries completely missed it.

    Then on Mar 11, they say 'pandemic' which is code for nothing and THEN everybody jumps.

    Just five days later, guidelines in the US were announced on Mar 16.

    See the effect of that word 'pandemic'.

    Look at this from a 5 eyes perspective. 3 down & 2 up.

    astralis will say those 2 don't count because they're islands.

    Well, so is the UK and per capita also in the same boat as the US.

    Why did US intel not talk to Taiwan, they could care less what China thinks.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jun 20, at 13:16.

  5. #1310
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Oh no, it is a much wider agenda in question and the things in the US will get,sadly, much more "interesting" very soon.
    ooh, this sounds like another multi-part thriller.

    Make a new thread and tell us how interesting : D

  6. #1311
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    You are ignoring that big gray area....where testing results are not not....and those results are expected to go up. Local news reports this AM confirmed. It's all a result of increase in testing. What also has to be factored in is the SW part of the state had little to no outbreaks and their tests results are figured into that average. But if you look at Tidewater, Richmond Metro & NOVA...where everyone lives...the trend line continues to climb.

    And why it spread....because the Federal government refused to take it seriously early enough. Fox News was saying all through JAN-FEB-Early MAR it was all a hoax...just a bad cold. I traveled the weekend 12-15 MAR 20 by plane. No one was taking precautions....my wife and I did. We wore masks and wiped down everything. That is how this spread so fast. It wasn't until the following week that the Federal government changed its tune and things changed.
    Now your state has added even more 'grey areas'. How do you make anything out of it : (

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    Positivity has reduced though, it was 14.9% two weeks back. Halved from a high of 22% a month and half back.

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    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jun 20, at 14:08.

  7. #1312
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    DE,

    The problem that i'm highlighting is no one woke up in Feb. WHO sounds its highest alert on Jan 30 but where is the action ?
    South Korea was working on getting mass produced tests starting in January.

    Taiwan was pulling its military to manufacture masks in January.

    for the West, it's not just the WHO saying "pandemic", it's also the fact that people were finally getting infected in numbers to make politicians take notice. I said that Trump should have woken up in February, because by then USFK in South Korea was already locking down troops and assisting the South Korean military.

    the US military/the Pentago was already starting massive preparations in February for a pandemic concurrent with USFK. I should know, I was there. plenty of people were awake, just that Trump wasn't one of them.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    He and Birx were met with pushback. He didn't say it but the person doing the pushback was Dr Redfield of the CDC. Redfield believed the CDC could contain the outbreak. The numbers the Americans had at that point in time would suggest that Redfield was right and Fauci and Birx were wrong.
    scientifically, what Fauci and Birx was saying makes the most sense. you lockdown early and prevent community transmission to the point where you can track and trace to do more specific isolation measures.

    if it's true that Redfield believed that the CDC could contain the outbreak, I would say that Redfield was badly deluded. how was the CDC gonna contain it when they couldn't even detect it?

    the first detected US cases was in late January.

    the Diamond Princess disaster/quarantine was in early February.

    the first case of LOCAL transmission in the US was detected in late February, where they had no idea how the patient got the disease (no travel history to known outbreak areas). which should have been the ultimate tip off that the CDC wasn't containing sh*t. Redfield should have been fired that very day.

    by the way, that was the same week where Trump said, “When you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #1314
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Fauci: Hydroxychloroquine Not Effective Against Coronavirus

    National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Anthony Fauci on Wednesday became the first Trump administration official to say definitively that hydroxychloroquine is not an effective treatment for the coronavirus, based on the available data.

    "The scientific data is really quite evident now about the lack of efficacy," Fauci — the U.S. government's top infectious disease expert — said on CNN.

    But he stopped short of calling for an outright ban of the drug, which President Trump said he was taking last week as a preventative measure after a top White House aide was diagnosed with the coronavirus.

    Fauci's comments come days after the Lancet published a 96,000-patient observational study that concluded that hydroxychloroquine had no effect on Covid-19 and may have even caused some harm.

    France decided this week to ban the use of hydroxychloroquine, even in clinical trials, and the WHO has paused its clinical trials of the drug.

    There is no data yet from randomized, controlled clinical trials of hydroxychloroquine — the gold standard for evaluating potential treatments. But Fauci was unequivocal on Wednesday, saying that "the data are clear right now."
    __________________

    Odds on Fauci keeping his job? Having his character and credentials publicly eviscerated? Being hung in effigy by Trump's sycophantic base?

    Place your bets ladies and gentlemen, place your bets....
    The saga continues

    Governments and WHO changed Covid-19 policy based on suspect data from tiny US company | Guardian | Jun 03 2020

    Lancet came out with a paper based on observational studies saying HCQ was not safe. WHO stopped trials soon after. Euro govts then moved to ban the drug.

    Now the data used for that Lancet paper is coming under the scanner. The Oxford group pointed out there was bias in the WHO studies and are doing their own clinical trial.

    Middle of the month we will know more.

    India maintains HCQ is effective to protect health care workers from contracting the disease. And even treatment in mild cases. The Indian Journal of medical research published a case control study showing how the risk reduces with more doses of HCQ.

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    They even commented on the Lancet study

    A recent registry-based analysis highlighted that HCQ did not offer therapeutic benefits to severe COVID-19 cases, and was associated with increased mortality. This apparent disparity with the findings of the current investigation could be explained by the two different application contexts.

    While the observational study involving registry-analysis focussed on the treatment of hospitalized COVID-19 patients, our emphasis was on the prevention of infections among HCWs.

    In treatment settings, severe COVID-19 patients are likely to have a very high viral load and cytokine levels, which may not be improved by HCQ therapy. The registry-based analysis further recorded higher frequencies of ventricular arrhythmias in patients receiving HCQ.

    The toxicities of HCQ are likely to be infrequent in healthy groups undergoing prophylactic therapy as observed in our study participants. Biologically, it appears plausible that HCQ prophylaxis, before onset of infection, may inhibit the virus from gaining a foothold.
    Healthcare workers & SARS-CoV-2 infection in India: A case-control investigation in the time of COVID-19

    Pranab Chatterjee, Tanu Anand, Kh Jitenkumar Singh, Reeta Rasaily, Ravinder Singh, Santasabuj Das, Harpreet Singh, Ira Praharaj, Raman R Gangakhedkar, Balram Bhargava, Samiran Panda

    DOI:10.4103/ijmr.IJMR_2234_20
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jun 20, at 17:14.

  10. #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Now your state has added even more 'grey areas'. How do you make anything out of it : (

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    Positivity has reduced though, it was 14.9% two weeks back. Halved from a high of 22% a month and half back.

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    Well, considering it took my son, who found out today that he id positive for COVID-19, a full week to get test results....it means that the public health sector of Virginia is swamped.

    The Governor know that. Which is why City of Richmond and suburbs along with Northern Virginia will remain at Stage 1 while the rest of the state goes to Stage 2. The trend lines continue up for NOVA & Richmond while it decreases in the more rural areas.

    Makes perfect sense.

    This is not over in Virginia for some time yet.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    DE,



    South Korea was working on getting mass produced tests starting in January.

    Taiwan was pulling its military to manufacture masks in January.

    for the West, it's not just the WHO saying "pandemic", it's also the fact that people were finally getting infected in numbers to make politicians take notice. I said that Trump should have woken up in February, because by then USFK in South Korea was already locking down troops and assisting the South Korean military.

    the US military/the Pentago was already starting massive preparations in February for a pandemic concurrent with USFK. I should know, I was there. plenty of people were awake, just that Trump wasn't one of them.
    Same in USAREUR, especially in Italy (Vicenza & Livorno) as things were going south in Italy.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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  12. #1317
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    DE,



    South Korea was working on getting mass produced tests starting in January.

    Taiwan was pulling its military to manufacture masks in January.

    for the West, it's not just the WHO saying "pandemic", it's also the fact that people were finally getting infected in numbers to make politicians take notice. I said that Trump should have woken up in February, because by then USFK in South Korea was already locking down troops and assisting the South Korean military.

    the US military/the Pentago was already starting massive preparations in February for a pandemic concurrent with USFK. I should know, I was there. plenty of people were awake, just that Trump wasn't one of them.
    Do you have any officials calling for stricter measures during that time frame ? because your CDC or any from other countries were not ringing the alarm.

    If your military is apprised, making preparations you said then why was it not escalated. Did they think it would remain contained to the far east.

    You see stirring within the system but its not quite awake if you get what i mean.

    Trump gets that he should not allow flights from China but he does not get that he should also stop them from Europe. That people coming from those countries should be observed and quarantined isn't even in the picture. Contact tracing is out as there were no resources available.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jun 20, at 17:54.

  13. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    scientifically, what Fauci and Birx was saying makes the most sense. you lockdown early and prevent community transmission to the point where you can track and trace to do more specific isolation measures.
    I'm no doctor, nor an infection specialist but if I were in Trump's place, I've also would have decided in favour in Redfield and Teldros. The numbers available then to a layman did not back up Fauci and Birx. You have to a lot more convincing than putting out a maybe, not when Redfield had the numbers to back him up.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    the first case of LOCAL transmission in the US was detected in late February, where they had no idea how the patient got the disease (no travel history to known outbreak areas). which should have been the ultimate tip off that the CDC wasn't containing sh*t. Redfield should have been fired that very day.
    Shots fired. The CDC is also reporting shit. To this day, the CDC is still reliant on fax to receive data. No automated system has been implemented, meaning the data the CDC publishes could be 2 weeks old. Birx has put out memos describing as such. Redfield's job is in her sights.

    Btw, admin, I've been typing fuck and shit for a while now, YOU don't have to asterisk the "i" out of shit.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 03 Jun 20, at 18:22.

  14. #1319
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    This sounds familiar with some neighbourhoods in India driving these people out or even attacking them. They think they will take people away.

    Local Public Health Workers Report Hostile Threats And Fears About Contact Tracing | NPR | Jun 03 2020

    Jones was shocked by the threats. She has lived in Okanogan County since the mid-80s, and thinks of it as a conservative-leaning place with reasonable people.

    But she believes the pandemic has brought forward a more radical strain in the community — people unwilling to listen to facts, who have become convinced the pandemic hides a more nefarious purpose.

    "We have the extremists who are being fed whatever information that isn't accurate," she says. "Somehow we've become the villains."
    Yep, it's as if these people have been coached to be hostile. Non cooperation, intimidation of workers then followed with violence against them.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Jun 20, at 18:47.

  15. #1320
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    same process we've seen with extremists; online echo chamber fans the flames.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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