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Thread: COVID-2019 in America, effect on politics and economy

  1. #286
    Senior Contributor GVChamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    certainly the CDC has not covered itself in glory and that can't be blamed on Trump-- but a number of other factors certainly can. I highly doubt HRC would have wasted two months calling this a hoax-- and that's just for starters. the Presidential bully pulpit matters! and that's not to say anything else of Federal coordination, management, etc.

    the problem has been managed well in Korea and in Taiwan, both democratic societies. for instance, South Korea getting massive numbers of tests-- that has nothing to do with "Korean culture", and everything to do with learning from MERS. of the European nations, I'd say only France and Germany have political leadership worth anything, and that's reflected in the population-adjusted case rates:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevorn.../#7f5ff26e974f

    frankly the US numbers are certainly significantly higher than reported, too, just because all those nations-- including basket case Italy!-- have conducted more tests as a proportion of their population than the US has.
    I don't disagree that HRC would be better, I just don't think it's going to much difference at this particular stage. Things had to get bad somewhere before we could start taking aggressive steps. I don't even think Trump COULD have taken appropriate aggressive action early on, people would just accuse him of being a paranoid idiot, or worse a dictator.

    I don't disagree on the actions of executive leadership, but I also don't think culture is irrelevant either. Japanese governance isn't particularly great and its work-from-home culture non-existent, but they've seem to have done a pretty good job despite these handicaps. That's probably because they are quite hygenic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Yesterday it was announced that all 'non-essential' businesses in my home state of Victoria & NSW would shut down, with school holidays in Victoria to start early. Too much evidence of too many people unwilling to adhere to 'social distancing' rules and a rapidly climbing number of cases forced the hand of several state Premiers.

    Most of our company is already working from home, but my team cannot. I turned up at work today expecting it to be our last day for weeks/months. Got a very nice surprise. My project manager successfully argued that because our sole client is a major government entity that needs the data we provide that we sneak in as 'essential'. Lots of new rules about cleaning and distance in the office, but for now we all have jobs to go to. We might scale back a few shifts, but for our casual workers in particular that is still a good outcome.

    By way of contrast I had a heartbreaking afternoon at my friend's Ethiopian cafe. I am there most weeks and it is my home away from home. They decided to close, so I went over to help out a bit and put a bit of cash over the till buying up food to see me through while they are closed. After 13 years in business my friends don't know when or even if they can reopen. The staff were all looking at a dole queue. There are so many stories like this. The speed of this crisis has rolled over everyone. SIGH!
    "Essential" has been stretch in the States to cover all sorts of stuff that's really NOT essential. Example: Laundromats. Or, here in IL, liquor stores. Our leadership is trying to preserve normal life as much as possible while minimizing social contact. I hope this does not come to bite us in the ass.


    In my personal life:
    -My Wife is starting to freak out a bit. One of her brother's friends died from COVID so it's starting to get real.
    -My parents and my in-laws are both furious we are keeping baby in day care. Unfortunately, there's not much else you can do with baby when both parents work. I am pretty sure I signed an employee contract that says I am not allowed to quit in a pandemic anyways because we are essential infrastructure.
    -Can't even go into the Day-care anyways. Our Day-care has been designated an emergency day-care for essential workers, and essential workers only. You drop baby off at the door, and a professional in full PPE takes baby inside. Baby gets temperature taken, and anything over 99.7 means baby goes home with you and can't come inside.
    -Costco had, maybe, 15 people in it. I've never seen that, ever.
    -Costco had no regular eggs left. On the other hand, all the remaining eggs are Grade AA. That's pretty cool
    -WHY CAN'T I BUY MORE THAN 1 PKG OF BACON DAMMIT?!
    -Our factory is implementing temperature checks prior to entry.
    -Baby's medical appointments have been cancelled. Now scrambling to find somewhere we can get her vaccinated.
    "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

  2. #287
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    I'm sure glad I'm not one of those he keeps on calling day and night particularly late night.

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump has never been known for his patience or long attention span.

    Now, as the coronavirus crisis threatens his presidency, and upends his campaign for reelection, Trump is rapidly losing patience with the medical professionals who have made the case day after day that the only way to prevent a catastrophic loss of life is to essentially shut down the country — to minimize transmission and “flatten the curve” so hospitals aren’t overwhelmed with critical patients.

    The president also has been furious that his efforts to halt the harrowing drop in the stock market have so far proven ineffective. He has been calling friends and economists at all hours and berated aides and reporters who try to persuade him to recognize the severity of the outbreak.

    President Donald Trump speaks during a coronavirus task force briefing at the White House, Sunday, March 22, 2020, in Washington. (AP Photo/Patrick Semansky)

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump has never been known for his patience or long attention span.

    Now, as the coronavirus crisis threatens his presidency, and upends his campaign for reelection, Trump is rapidly losing patience with the medical professionals who have made the case day after day that the only way to prevent a catastrophic loss of life is to essentially shut down the country — to minimize transmission and “flatten the curve” so hospitals aren’t overwhelmed with critical patients.

    The president also has been furious that his efforts to halt the harrowing drop in the stock market have so far proven ineffective. He has been calling friends and economists at all hours and berated aides and reporters who try to persuade him to recognize the severity of the outbreak.

    Beyond the crisis, he has been agitated that he can’t run the campaign he wants against Democrat Joe Biden, and he has used daily, hour-long briefings as near proxies for his campaign rallies, guaranteed to attract attention and to maintain the backing of his fervent political case.

    This account is based on interviews with a dozen White House aides, former administration officials and Republicans close to the White House granted anonymity to discuss private conversations.

    In a sign of his growing restiveness, Trump tweeted just before midnight:

    “WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!”

    He followed up early Monday with a series of retweets that seemed to endorse re-opening American society upon the conclusion of the initial 15-day restrictions, meant to slow the spread of the virus, next week.

    It reflected the view from a growing number senior of administration officials who believe the closing of the economy was too harsh but that re-opening it would directly contradict the advice of health experts, a bipartisan group of governors and mayors and potentially set up a confrontation with his own medical advisers, including top infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci.

    Trump tried to minimize the threat of the virus from the outset and in recent days has vacillated between acknowledging the crisis and suggesting that it would all soon be over.

    With his Mar-a-Lago club shuttered and his frequent trips to the golf course now off limits, Trump has been largely stuck in the White House. Even in good times, other presidents have likened life in the White House to being like prison.

    For Trump, that feeling is magnified by walling himself off during the crisis. Unable to travel and unsure of what to do, he’s been crashing West Wing meetings, often forcing staffers to hurriedly adjust agendas as the president frequently gets in the way of health professionals trying to chart a course of action.

    While some around him have suggested that he should only appear when there is big news to announce, Trump has been missing the spotlight and has told people that he knows the nation is watching the briefings and doesn’t want to give up the stage.

    On Sunday, he asked the briefing, originally slated for 4:30 p.m. to be pushed back later into the evening, when more people would be watching — including those tuning in for “60 Minutes,” the president’s favorite broadcast news magazine.

    Trump has rebuked reporters whose questions he does not like, and behind closed doors, it has been much the same. The president has snapped at aides delivering news that contradicts his relentless belief the crisis will be resolved soon.

    Upon his return from a trip to India last month, Trump lit into aides about Dr. Nancy Messonnier, the director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, who had provided a dire warning about the virus’ potential impact. He chided Vice President Mike Pence in a West Wing meeting for defending Washington Gov. Jay Inslee, a one-time Democratic presidential contender, for his handling of the crisis. And he angrily upbraided medical providers who called on his administration to do more, saying they should be upset instead with their local leadership.

    And he has railed against journalists for investigating his sluggish response, driven, in part, by a desire to discredit the media at a time when he knows the headlines are only going to get worse.

    “I watch and listen to the Fake News, CNN, MSDNC, ABC, NBC, CBS, some of FOX (desperately & foolishly pleading to be politically correct), the @nytimes, & the @washingtonpost, and all I see is hatred of me at any cost,” he tweeted over the weekend. “Don’t they understand that they are destroying themselves?”

    That line has been picked up by others in the administration who also made clear that they don’t see value in reporters digging into how the administration prepared for the looming crisis.

    “I don’t think it’s appropriate right now for the press to be going backwards,” echoed White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham. “There’s no reason to go backwards and figure out tick-tocks of what happened when. We’ve got a crisis on our hands, we’ve got a coronavirus in this country, and the press should -- they’ve got a real opportunity...to also spread great information to this public and give information that our task force is trying to get out there.”

    It wasn’t supposed to be this way.

    Mere weeks ago, Trump and his reelection campaign had planned to use his massive financial advantage to try to define his opponent to the public in the race’s early months, much like former President Barack Obama did to Republican Mitt Romney in 2012.

    Trump had planned to frame the race as a contest between a decisive president who had ushered in an economic golden age, versus either an avowed socialist like Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders or a creature of the Washington establishment, Biden, who was struggling to raise money and enthusiasm.

    But instead of facing a wounded Democrat at the end of a drawn-out nomination fight, an emboldened Biden has emerged as his party’s clear front-runner, having coalesced much of the party around him while addressing his cash shortage. And now Trump is staring at a recession, a potentially lethal political blow for any incumbent, but particularly one who has so tethered his fortunes to the stock market and a once buoyant economy.

    Unable to hold his rallies, Trump has lost his favorite outlet and deprived his campaign of compiling valuable voter data. And while his campaign’s war chest remains robust, any sort of TV ad campaign has been sidelined, though anti-Biden digital spots are still being produced and aides have expressed surprise and relief that the former vice president has largely ceded Trump the spotlight the last two weeks.

    With no chance of any trips anytime soon aboard Air Force One, where Trump often spends his time talking out campaign strategy and socializing with old friends and allies, he’s unleashed his anger on Twitter — including at Democratic governors who dare criticize him — and has been on the phone constantly, peppering people with calls.

    In recent days, the president tried to reach one economist late at night but the person slept through multiple calls.

    So Trump just kept calling. Eventually, the economist woke up.
    https://apnews.com/5dd6b30e03542b435e2716e3e3a483e4

  3. #288
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    DE,

    if you believe CCP stats...I have a bridge to sell you.
    Yeah i believe them because they are so horrendous there is nothing to hide.

    Just using the doubling by 6 days told me their numbers were in the right ball park.

    Did you see the nurses from elsewhere leave Wuhan recently ? the worst is over.

    Other countries are flat lining as well. So it's not impossible.

    in any case, we're up to 35K+ cases, so an additional 3K overnight. and those are the cases we -know- about.

    still doubt that the possibility of hitting 200K in 9 days?
    Why not ?

    Cuomo thinks a peak will take another 45 days.

    Your testing numbers are improving, that means more found and out of circulation
    Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Mar 20, at 01:05.

  4. #289
    Regular Wonderful Plans's Avatar
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    I believe that this coronavirus is a passing fad and not all that much to be concerned with. World nations are using this as an excuse to employ their politics and do things they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. A cover or mask. If I'm wrong then it ain't gonna matter because I'm not in a high risk group and my immune system is much stronger than your average hypochondriac.
    Hit the grape lethally.

  5. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    I believe that this coronavirus is a passing fad and not all that much to be concerned with. World nations are using this as an excuse to employ their politics and do things they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. A cover or mask. If I'm wrong then it ain't gonna matter because I'm not in a high risk group and my immune system is much stronger than your average hypochondriac.
    Ever consider that all the medical facilities can't handle anything else but COVID-19 at the moment? Oh, I don't know ... say you get into a car accident and there are no more beds left for you?

  6. #291
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Interesting.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

  7. #292
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Ever consider that all the medical facilities can't handle anything else but COVID-19 at the moment? Oh, I don't know ... say you get into a car accident and there are no more beds left for you?
    Not just car accident, could be anything else but covid : (
    Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Mar 20, at 03:33.

  8. #293
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    This is an angle i'd not considered. Because people don't fight the state in times like this, all on the same side. right ?


    Inside the U.S. military's plans to stop 'civil disturbances' amid coronavirus pandemic, something they haven't done in 30 years | Newsweek | Mar 20 2020

    Who would control the military's response if the coronavirus pandemic causes civil unrest?

    Within military circles, opinion is split over whether federal forces should muscle their way in to do more.

    State governors and their respective National Guard units, not the federal government and the active duty military, are primarily responsible for handling domestic emergencies: that's the law and it's also common sense, since local officials are always closer to a crisis and generally more familiar with the people affected.
    You never want military to be police men because then the people become the enemy.


    A senior military planner working on coronavirus but not authorized to speak on sensitive planning matters says that deployment of federal troops in support roles is being prepared. This week, the Pentagon allocated two Navy hospital ships to coronavirus duty, one in New York and the other in California. Other logistics and engineering missions are also being prepared, those support missions partially intended to free up National Guard troops so that they can conduct law enforcement if necessary, with the active duty forces operating in the background.

    But once military forces are dispersed off bases in America, the senior planner says, they will have to contend with "force protection" and will be thrust into difficult general law enforcement roles, particularly as shelter-in-place and other quarantine situations escalate.

    Rumors of a nationwide lockdown spread through social media this week, and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden said he would mobilize military forces "now" to respond to coronavirus. And while tamping down fear of martial law, California Gov. Gavin Newsom said that though it wasn't called for or necessary, "If you want to establish a framework of martial law, which is ultimate authority and enforcement, we have the capacity to do that."

    "Martial law involves use of the military to exercise police powers; restore and maintain order; ensure essential mechanics of distribution, transportation and communication; and conduct necessary relief measures," an Army manual published last July says. The doctrine, however, is contradictory on the question of who can order martial law. In one place it says that only the president may order federal military forces to impose martial law, and on another page it says, "other officials may be authorized to impose martial law within a particular state under that state's law."
    And i remember this quibble we had some time back about tanks on July the 4th and how inappropriate that would be.

    Seriously what are the more unhinged going to make of this !!!

    What would trigger the use of force in "civil disturbance operations" derives mostly from the experience of Hurricane Katrina.

    During the response in New Orleans, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco refused Bush administration insistence that she accede to federalizing her Guard forces, fearing that she would lose control. Though President George W. Bush could have invoked the law to force federalization and authorize Army troops to enforce the law given the nature of the emergency, the White House backed down, deploying forces but not with any police powers.

    The use of federal military forces in the enforcement of the law—as a posse comitatus or a group summoned by the local sheriff—has long been prohibited unless it is otherwise authorized by specific laws passed by Congress. In CONPLAN 3502, there are references to three exceptions:

    - the use of the military in the war on drugs;

    - in "extraordinary circumstances" involving weapons of mass destruction; and a third,

    - in the Enforcement of the Laws to Restore Public Order Act, also confusingly known as The Insurrection Act.

    According to NORTHCOM, federal troops could be used to enforce the law in cases when "rebellion against the authority of the U.S. makes it impracticable to enforce the laws of the U.S. by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings".

    Under the Insurrection Act, CONPLAN 3502 says, if violence cannot be brought under control by state and local law enforcement agencies and the State National Guard, the president may use the National Guard (called into federal service), the reserves (when called to active duty), and members of the Armed Forces to enforce federal laws or to suppress an insurrection.

    The president may use the Armed Forces or the federalized National Guard, the plan says, to make arrests, conduct searches and perform other traditional law enforcement functions if needed to suppress any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy.

    The conditions are not unlimited, as even there, under the Insurrection act, the use of federal military forces is supposed to be justified only if civil violence or disruption "so hinders the execution of State and Federal law that people are deprived of their rights secured by the Constitution and laws."

    I figured it would be a good idea to discuss this with sane people here.

  9. #294
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    GVChamp,

    I don't disagree that HRC would be better, I just don't think it's going to much difference at this particular stage. Things had to get bad somewhere before we could start taking aggressive steps. I don't even think Trump COULD have taken appropriate aggressive action early on, people would just accuse him of being a paranoid idiot, or worse a dictator.
    he merely just needed to not say this was a hoax, and start buying masks, ventilators, basic stuff. the early emergency funding request of $8 billion could have been passed in january or february and no one would have said boo. put the knuckle on reticent governors. you know, a basic level of competence thing. this ain't Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt level of leadership required.

    things would still suck, but it wouldn't be -this- bad. people only really started getting serious about social distancing this last week, and the pictures of the Florida/CA beaches should give anyone heebie-jeebies.

    on the plus side of having Trump as President: I guarantee you that if HRC was President and the GOP had the Senate, no one would be talking about a $1.2T-$2T stimulus bill right now. if I had to guess, Mitch McConnell would probably agree to several hundred billion worth of, I dunno, payroll and corporate tax cuts, pocket that win for industry, and watch merrily as the insufficient stimulus caused HRC to crash and burn in November.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  10. #295
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ^ Take all safety precautions and stay safe Bigfella.
    Thanks. That is the plan. I'm more worried about Mum, who is 78 & has had respiratory issues. She is basically in lockdown until it os safe.

    While we're at it, take care yourself. Thus far India has a low number of cases, but I don't have to tell you how difficult 'social distancing' will be if it becomes widespread or how difficult it will be for your health system to cope with a huge spike in cases.

    Scary times.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  11. #296
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    We're not that lucky.
    No, we are not. It won't be the meek who inherit the earth, but the stupid.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  12. #297
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Ever consider that all the medical facilities can't handle anything else but COVID-19 at the moment? Oh, I don't know ... say you get into a car accident and there are no more beds left for you?
    Pearls before swine Sir. Some people aren't very good at the whole logical thinking thing or the whole paying attention thing.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  13. #298
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    GVChamp,



    he merely just needed to not say this was a hoax, and start buying masks, ventilators, basic stuff. the early emergency funding request of $8 billion could have been passed in january or february and no one would have said boo. put the knuckle on reticent governors. you know, a basic level of competence thing. this ain't Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt level of leadership required.

    things would still suck, but it wouldn't be -this- bad. people only really started getting serious about social distancing this last week, and the pictures of the Florida/CA beaches should give anyone heebie-jeebies.

    on the plus side of having Trump as President: I guarantee you that if HRC was President and the GOP had the Senate, no one would be talking about a $1.2T-$2T stimulus bill right now. if I had to guess, Mitch McConnell would probably agree to several hundred billion worth of, I dunno, payroll and corporate tax cuts, pocket that win for industry, and watch merrily as the insufficient stimulus caused HRC to crash and burn in November.
    Judging by the GOP reaction to Ebola this is very, very correct. People dying in the street is only a problem when it might cost them votes.

    Literally any person capable of listening to expert advice and conveying the gravity of that to people would be an improvement on Trump. He had to be dragged kicking & screaming to just acting like this wasn't all about him, and even then he just can't stop trolling.

    My nation is burdened with a spectacularly mediocre leader, but even he has put aside his worst instincts in favour of expert advice. There is much to critique about his performance, but it has been broadly competent and focused on the issue rather than politics. I am once again so very glad I'm on this side of the Pacific and you have my profound sympathy for being burdened with the low quality of leadership you have.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  14. #299
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    I believe that this coronavirus is a passing fad and not all that much to be concerned with. World nations are using this as an excuse to employ their politics and do things they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. A cover or mask. If I'm wrong then it ain't gonna matter because I'm not in a high risk group and my immune system is much stronger than your average hypochondriac.
    Wow, please share how you learned to avoid being a virus carrier without symptons. It must be just awesome to "believe" -- no science required! -- you won't infect other people.

    I'm going to nominate you for the Darwin Award!
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    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  15. #300
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Thanks. That is the plan. I'm more worried about Mum, who is 78 & has had respiratory issues. She is basically in lockdown until it os safe.

    While we're at it, take care yourself. Thus far India has a low number of cases, but I don't have to tell you how difficult 'social distancing' will be if it becomes widespread or how difficult it will be for your health system to cope with a huge spike in cases.

    Scary times.
    I pray your mom is fine and the lockdown works well for her. Not so much for India. People flout quarantine norms and then visit malls, pubs etc, and thus the virus has been spreading. These are educated people I'm talking about. Scary times indeed.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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