Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

War in Space, Space to Earth War, Moon to Earth War

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
    His point is how do you make things in space. You seem to think that can be solved. I'm not so convinced.

    It would take a massive investment to build the infrastructure. What will be the impetus to do that ?

    Let's say we get past this then the question of finding those minerals comes up

    Do we know what is out there and where it is ? no, we have to go prospecting

    Let's say we find a rock that has what we want. How then do we guide it to its destination to process it

    Nudge it towards the moon and then let it impact at some designated point ?

    We go back to the initial question ? why do it in the first place

    Unless what we want is no longer available here and we have no other choice.

    When is that likely to be the case ? i don't know.
    How do you make things in space?
    Theorum says that you would start with a small operation launched from Earth. The mining equipment of the operation would be remote controlled from the safety of either a space craft or a land base on a separate asteroid or the Moon. Starting slow, the resource would be returned to Earth to sell and reinvest back into the mining operation. This would grow the operation to whatever size needed to satisfy the owner, setting up operation in a hollowed out asteroid or on the Moon, where climate controlled production facilities would process the resources that can be used to build more craft. Just like any other business you wouldn't start off with a huge and grand operation. This would all happen over years of time.

    All of the technology exists to make this happen.
    Last edited by Wonderful Plans; 04 Mar 20,, 02:54.
    Hit the grape lethally.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
      Just like any other business you wouldn't start off with a huge and grand operation. This would all happen over years of time.
      But by its very nature, this has to be huge and a grand operation. To deliver the ROVER to Mars took over a $billion and all we got back are nice pictures and some measurements
      Chimo

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        But by its very nature, this has to be huge and a grand operation. To deliver the ROVER to Mars took over a $billion and all we got back are nice pictures and some measurements
        Of course this sort of thing would be expensive. But regardless of however many billions of dollars the price tag would total, all that money would amount to far less in physical volume and weight that the crafts and equipment would possess than if the same amount were spent on an Earth-bound operation.

        A lot of that money would go into the launch.
        Hit the grape lethally.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
          Of course this sort of thing would be expensive. But regardless of however many billions of dollars the price tag would total, all that money would amount to far less in physical volume and weight that the crafts and equipment would possess than if the same amount were spent on an Earth-bound operation.

          A lot of that money would go into the launch.
          Are you reading what you wrote? So you're telling me that it is cheaper to goto an asteroid that we don't know what it has, tens of light minutes out into space, than to mine the stuff on earth? In short, we have to spend over a $billion just to send one single drill, never mind a return vehicle, to an asteroid. Even Californium at $25mil per gram, we make that stuff here on earth. About the only stuff more expensive is anti-matter at $62TRILLION per gram but we're not going to find that on an asteroid. So, if you do the math, even an entire asteroid 10 miles across of pure diamond won't be worth the investment to get it.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
            Are you reading what you wrote? So you're telling me that it is cheaper to goto an asteroid that we don't know what it has, tens of light minutes out into space, than to mine the stuff on earth? In short, we have to spend over a $billion just to send one single drill, never mind a return vehicle, to an asteroid. Even Californium at $25mil per gram, we make that stuff here on earth. About the only stuff more expensive is anti-matter at $62TRILLION per gram but we're not going to find that on an asteroid. So, if you do the math, even an entire asteroid 10 miles across of pure diamond won't be worth the investment to get it.
            Mining is environmentally destructive and space is limited. Also, resources are more abundant on lifeless asteroids and lifeless moons because they lack continental subduction and organic matter. All that dirt is gone and the resources sit closer to the surface in higher abundance because there was less mixing. Some moons half the size of earths moon contain triple the water content of the whole earth, same situation with other elements like nickel and iron and carbons. The extremities of space temperatures also keeps some rare natural earth gases in a crystaline frozen state, giving opportunity to mine higher volumes with less time and energy.

            There were several articles that I read about this a year or two ago published by the leading science journals. What makes space mining so attractive is the possibility of resources thousands of times as abundant as that of mines on earth. This would make companies tens of trillions.

            But with a possibility of a hostile warlike human prescence that could make space mining impossible for private corporations, the hostile environment could force corporations to become their own sovereign nations in order to create their own impenetrable defenses.
            Last edited by Wonderful Plans; 07 Mar 20,, 22:36.
            Hit the grape lethally.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
              You're not considering what big industry and big corporate has already done and is already doing on scales greater than ancient Egypt. In the U.S.A. the government has to compete with big business to stay #1 and if it weren't for the military sector they would be badly beaten. If it can be done and a plan well modeled and the technology is possible and the money is there then there you go, they'll push through the plans as hard and fast as they can. It's trillions and trillions of dollars. Some asteroids have the potential to contain more of a single resource than all of the minable Earth.
              The trouble with Space Industry under that scenario all that is that its classic 'boot strapping'. There's no reason to mine minerals in space unless you have the demand for a large amount of space infrastructure to begin with and no mining of those minerals without the infrastructure.

              In fact at the moment I can see only one space based industry that is likely to be both potentially viable and which could also (eventually) generate enough demand that spaced based mining/manufacturing becomes economical. And that is space tourism.

              First though the cost per kilogram for launch has to continue falling. There will never be enough demand for 'bums on seats' while only millionaires and above can afford a seat on one of the new launch platforms. But if you can get it down to something approaching a first class airline ticket then there would be enough global demand that 'vacations' in orbital habs would become a big ticket item. More people in orbit = bigger habs with demand for more facilities. THEN demand for space mining and manufacturing becomes practical. And once it kicks off all the other options for space based industry become viable as well.

              As for a pure 'space' war? Could happen but IMO at least for the foreseeable future seems extremely unlikely. Not only would it be horrendously expensive, it would be hard/next to impossible to hide. To many people watching and no way to magically contain the fighting to space if one side starts losing badly enough. So who attacked who first in a classic style military operation (vs say sabotage) is going to become public knowledge pretty quickly. Any sudden eruption of war in space would have to be linked to some kind of major conflict here on Earth, whereupon we all have bigger problems than who destroyed what moon base.
              Last edited by Monash; 21 Jan 22,, 02:13.
              If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

              Comment


              • #22
                This is probably the equivalent of 1989 and the invention of the World Wide Web. A platform to innovate upon and difficult to predict the outcomes. Spacex have dramatically altered the cost of going to space through reusable rockets and now the second space era begins and it will be privately driven and market driven. As we well know, thats a powerful mechanism once applied to a space, pun intended.

                There may very well be an explosion in Earth orbit applications which will dramatically increase economic activity in space.

                The big question is the moon and the big unknowns are next gen tech that alters the calculus in ways we cant forsee. Perhaps helium 3 will be the key resource to fusion energy as many have predicted. There are good reasons to expect there is far more helium 3 on the moon for us to mine. That could single handely create a self sufficient lunar colony that the earth depends on. They may be able to produce rocket fuel from lunar ice and export it to orbit at far cheaper prices than on earth due to their lower gravitiational mass and mine rare minerals in lunar impact craters that have been left undisurbed or move asteroids to the moon orbit. They can make concrete as lunar soil has the right ingredients ans create large buildings to support tourism. Not to mention low gravity manufacturing and environmentally polluting industries if we ever externalise economic costs properly on earth and ESG investing reaches logical consclusions. Over time an economically dependent moon could thrive and lay the groundwork for a broader space faring society.

                I would suspect that space war would be signficant impacted by cyber and earth based communication disrpution. It would be largely dominated by economic considerations and asymmetric realities, meaning small remote piloted or autnomous devices that are cheaper to build would damage large expensive and vulnerable infrastruture that is fixed or predictble orbits. This could allow terrorist organisations or smaller nations to have disproportionate impacts.
                Last edited by tantalus; 15 Aug 20,, 12:23.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                  But by its very nature, this has to be huge and a grand operation. To deliver the ROVER to Mars took over a $billion and all we got back are nice pictures and some measurements
                  What was the ROI on Lief Erikson's first visit to your neck of the woods?
                  Trust me?
                  I'm an economist!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DOR View Post
                    What was the ROI on Lief Erikson's first visit to your neck of the woods?
                    A colony.
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DOR View Post
                      What was the ROI on Lief Erikson's first visit to your neck of the woods?
                      As OoE said, a colony. The same reason for pretty much all of the voyages of discovery in that era: Resources and Lebensraum.
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TopHatter View Post
                        As OoE said, a colony. The same reason for pretty much all of the voyages of discovery in that era: Resources and Lebensraum.
                        So, for space exploration to be successful, the investors have to go along on the initial voyage, as colonists?
                        I don't think so.
                        Trust me?
                        I'm an economist!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DOR View Post
                          So, for space exploration to be successful,
                          You didn't ask about space exploration. You asked about old Lief.

                          Originally posted by DOR View Post
                          the investors have to go along on the initial voyage, as colonists?
                          The title of this thread is war in space. Is there anything out there worth going to war over.

                          Originally posted by DOR View Post
                          I don't think so.
                          How many investors are you are going to get with zero return for a money sink hole?
                          Chimo

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DOR View Post
                            So, for space exploration to be successful, the investors have to go along on the initial voyage, as colonists?
                            I don't think so.
                            I'm a little surprised at this response, DOR. I expect this kind of knee-jerk, simplistic, putting words in my mouth, sort of thing from a Trump follower, not you.

                            As OOE said:

                            Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                            You didn't ask about space exploration. You asked about old Lief.

                            The title of this thread is war in space. Is there anything out there worth going to war over.

                            How many investors are you are going to get with zero return for a money sink hole?
                            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
                              Until we solve the fuel mass problem, ie we have to carry our fuel with us into space, this is all just purely speculative. The Return on Investment ain't there once you calculate in the fuel you need to get there and get back.
                              Some advocate for beam powered propulsion, for example some sort of offboard system directing a tight beam of powerful microwave EMF at the spacecraft from a distance (source could be a terrestrial power source, an orbiting system, moon based, etc.), converting that received EMF to electricity onboard the spacecraft and using that electricity to power the spacecraft including its electric propulsion system. Generate a plasma using that electric power and some onboard liquid hydrogen, and use a powerful magnet system to accelerate the plasma rearward on a steerable vector, impulses of low mass at very high velocity to steer and propel the craft forward.

                              .
                              .
                              .

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JRT View Post

                                Some advocate for beam powered propulsion, for example some sort of offboard system directing a tight beam of powerful microwave EMF at the spacecraft from a distance (source could be a terrestrial power source, an orbiting system, moon based, etc.), converting that received EMF to electricity onboard the spacecraft and using that electricity to power the spacecraft including its electric propulsion system. Generate a plasma using that electric power and some onboard liquid hydrogen, and use a powerful magnet system to accelerate the plasma rearward on a steerable vector, impulses of low mass at very high velocity to steer and propel the craft forward.
                                Yeah, but will it have frickin' laser beams on its head?

                                Sorry....
                                “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
                                Mark Twain

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X