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Thread: War in Space, Space to Earth War, Moon to Earth War

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    Regular Wonderful Plans's Avatar
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    War in Space, Space to Earth War, Moon to Earth War

    I wasn't much of a Star Wars fan although I can appreciate the original movies and recognize them for their worth. Before Star Wars there was Star Trek, both scenarios seem unlikely but I can foresee that what reality will bring us with space tactics should be a balanced blend of the two concepts. Exploration and mining for resources versus territorial disputes and a scramble for tactical advantage over Earth from Space.

    The Moon is of course number one on every space faring countries' list. In Ad Astra there is a battle portrayed between Moon cruisers and I would expect this sort of thing actually happening between two established Moon colonies be they corporate, private or governmental.

    Personally, I don't think there will be an everlasting peace in space. Space craft are so delicate and combat so extremely easy in space that most two way combatants will end in mutual destruction. So, the tactics of success will be sneakiness and ambush and deception. We will have Russia, China, Japan, India and the U.S.A. as the largest contenders in space combat. The E.S.A. appears to be taking a more neutral role and I fear that they might get pushed out of the space race if Brexit is any indication of a near future E.U. split. And if so I would expect that emergent space agencies from a post-E.U. state would originate in France, Germany or Italy, perhaps jointly.

    Corporate mining will be huge when they can start popping out the appropriate equipment at economical values. You got Virgin Galactic leading the private sector and talk of space hotels for tourists.

    This subject seems broad and multi-fauceted. Any ideas anyone? What do you think of the space race of the mid-21st century?
    Last edited by Wonderful Plans; 11 Feb 20, at 14:00.
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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    The problem with warfare in space is distance.
    Try hitting a moving target at 100 yards, then up the ante to a million yards (568 miles), and then a billion yards (568,182 miles).
    Rinse and repeat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    The problem with warfare in space is distance.
    Try hitting a moving target at 100 yards, then up the ante to a million yards (568 miles), and then a billion yards (568,182 miles).
    Rinse and repeat.
    Actually, it is extremely easy and extremely terrifying. You don't hit the asteroid. You hit the recipiant, targets on earth. And it's damned easy to move rocks into Earth's gravity well. Just place a few well placed explosive charges to nudge the rock out of place and let the sun's and the earth's gravity wells do the rest.

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    For your amusement...
    (notice the date on the article)

    Science: Extra-Atmospheric War
    Monday, Sept. 02, 1946
    Time Magazine

    It will not come in a year, nor perhaps in ten years, but U.S. scientists and military lookers-ahead are already planning soberly for war beyond the atmosphere. Eventually, they are convinced, the earth can be decked out with man-made satellites, revolving in orbits hundreds of miles out, keeping baleful watch with instruments on man's little world. Even before that day, they believe missiles can be sent through the atmosphere's outer reaches, and directed to hit any target on earth.

    Such developments had been long predicted, but usually by freewheeling prophets or Buck Rogers...
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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Actually, it is extremely easy and extremely terrifying. You don't hit the asteroid. You hit the recipiant, targets on earth. And it's damned easy to move rocks into Earth's gravity well. Just place a few well placed explosive charges to nudge the rock out of place and let the sun's and the earth's gravity wells do the rest.
    I assume you totally discount targeting, as in, hitting the designated continent?
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    Where are some engaging and intellectual responses here? I think this subject is broad and fresh enough and relevant enough to warrant some deeper considerations. Any thoughts on the upcoming new chapter in human history? The huge and great space race. I personally think that whatever happens in the next 20 years of human occupation of space will decide the next course the whole of humanity will take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    I assume you totally discount targeting, as in, hitting the designated continent?
    It's called course correction. Such attacks would take years to accomplish as the rock would take years to reach Earth. Something as simple as placing a probe on the flight path of the rock with its own gravity well would nudge the rock along its flight path.

    Look up ideas how we are going to avoid the next dinosaur killer. The same ideas could guide one to earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    Where are some engaging and intellectual responses here? I think this subject is broad and fresh enough and relevant enough to warrant some deeper considerations. Any thoughts on the upcoming new chapter in human history? The huge and great space race. I personally think that whatever happens in the next 20 years of human occupation of space will decide the next course the whole of humanity will take.
    Until we solve the fuel mass problem, ie we have to carry our fuel with us into space, this is all just purely speculative. The Return on Investment ain't there once you calculate in the fuel you need to get there and get back.

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    Until we solve the fuel mass problem, ie we have to carry our fuel with us into space, this is all just purely speculative. The Return on Investment ain't there once you calculate in the fuel you need to get there and get back.
    for the immediate purposes of the moon and Mars, it's doable at high cost.

    especially if you're someone like Elon Musk, where the purpose is not RoI but just where he wants to blow his money to build his legacy.

    for anything much beyond that, though, yeah, we'll need to move from chem rockets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Until we solve the fuel mass problem, ie we have to carry our fuel with us into space, this is all just purely speculative. The Return on Investment ain't there once you calculate in the fuel you need to get there and get back.
    Once fuel and equipment building materials are found on particularly feasible asteroids all those prices will plummet because the bulk of everything can be found in zero gravity. (Iron, hydrogen, silicates)
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Until we solve the fuel mass problem, ie we have to carry our fuel with us into space, this is all just purely speculative. The Return on Investment ain't there once you calculate in the fuel you need to get there and get back.
    Nuclear fission is viable with high energy density and adequately high power density.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    Once fuel and equipment building materials are found on particularly feasible asteroids all those prices will plummet because the bulk of everything can be found in zero gravity. (Iron, hydrogen, silicates)
    Processing raw materials into a multiplicity of useful materials is nontrivial. Conventional terrestrial industrial efforts make use of large economies of scale, not just in their own industrial processes, but also in the purchased components utilized in those industrial processes, and it seems unlikely that extraterrestrial efforts would expand beyond very small laboratory scale.

    Consider the sizes of steel mills, aluminum mills, chip fabs, oil refineries, manufacturing plants for ball bearings, capacitors, wire, etc. Even a modest 3D printer needs a source of materials, and can be quite finicky about quality control in manufacturing those materials used in the printer.
    Last edited by JRT; 13 Feb 20, at 16:53.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRT View Post
    Processing raw materials into a multiplicity of useful materials is nontrivial. Conventional terrestrial industrial efforts make use of large economies of scale, not just in their own industrial processes, but also in the purchased components utilized in those industrial processes, and it seems unlikely that extraterrestrial efforts would expand beyond very small laboratory scale.

    Consider the sizes of steel mills, aluminum mills, chip fabs, oil refineries, manufacturing plants for ball bearings, capacitors, wire, etc. Even a modest 3D printer needs a source of materials, and can be quite finicky about quality control in manufacturing those materials used in the printer.
    You're not considering what big industry and big corporate has already done and is already doing on scales greater than ancient Egypt. In the U.S.A. the government has to compete with big business to stay #1 and if it weren't for the military sector they would be badly beaten. If it can be done and a plan well modeled and the technology is possible and the money is there then there you go, they'll push through the plans as hard and fast as they can. It's trillions and trillions of dollars. Some asteroids have the potential to contain more of a single resource than all of the minable Earth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    Once fuel and equipment building materials are found on particularly feasible asteroids all those prices will plummet because the bulk of everything can be found in zero gravity. (Iron, hydrogen, silicates)
    Major problem. They're not all on the same rock. And last I check, there's only one rock with enough water and oxygen to make it economically feasible to do industrial production.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 13 Feb 20, at 21:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    You're not considering what big industry and big corporate has already done and is already doing on scales greater than ancient Egypt. In the U.S.A. the government has to compete with big business to stay #1 and if it weren't for the military sector they would be badly beaten. If it can be done and a plan well modeled and the technology is possible and the money is there then there you go, they'll push through the plans as hard and fast as they can. It's trillions and trillions of dollars. Some asteroids have the potential to contain more of a single resource than all of the minable Earth.
    His point is how do you make things in space. You seem to think that can be solved. I'm not so convinced.

    It would take a massive investment to build the infrastructure. What will be the impetus to do that ?

    Let's say we get past this then the question of finding those minerals comes up

    Do we know what is out there and where it is ? no, we have to go prospecting

    Let's say we find a rock that has what we want. How then do we guide it to its destination to process it

    Nudge it towards the moon and then let it impact at some designated point ?

    We go back to the initial question ? why do it in the first place

    Unless what we want is no longer available here and we have no other choice.

    When is that likely to be the case ? i don't know.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Feb 20, at 21:19.

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