Coronavirus: the Chinese Political Angle

[Double Edge]

The CCP could only respond in three ways. Confirm, deny or say nothing. None would convince you. So I wouldn't take their response as proof of anything.

Why call up the WH and threaten FOX then about her?

You mistake me. The crux of my argument is not about what happened in China and between China and WHO. The international inquiry into the pandemic is coming, so we will see soon enough. The crux of my argument is whether or not she's a fraud trying to cash out.

I trust the experts when they say there was a cover up. I'm doubting the her significance in all this.

What you say is possible. Also possible is that the masks were a pre-caution, not a confirmation of transmissibility.

It seems reasonable to my mind that health authorities assess their information carefully before announcing vital information. False alarms have economic costs and cost health authorities their credibility - the next time a health emergency happens, people are less likely to follow official instructions.

She took an educated guess without data and got it right.

This will have to wait for further interviews with her. One is not enough. Luther mentioned 4h interview but only 13 mins released so far. So there will be more to come.

https://twitter.com/Vinisauce/status...91395356241926 I'm going to assume that this guy didn't photoshop the images.

Already posted those in the thread, post #120 & #139

No photoshop is there

What? We're not understanding each other clearly. I talking about what various actors knew at the time.

China witheld crucial info by covering things up until they could not any longer. By then the damage was done.

She's corroborating by adding her bit

That's some conspiracy theory level stuff there. Even if China got out of the deal, what would prevent Trump from coming back for another one? The US has the upperhand, and Trump won't stop till he gets what he wants. The CCP would've killed its own citizens for nothing. I trust that the top leadership knew this.

Nothing, he'd just walk out of it which he threatens to do but has not so far. Because according to Bolton he needs their help to get re-elected.

CCP does not care if they kill their citizens.

I was not talking about the American phenomenon as you described. I meant that Murdoch media pushed partisan propaganda everywhere. I perceive no difference in how they act across different governments.

They are centre right. Any centre right govt isn't going to have a problem with them. That's all i'm saying.

Partisan agenda is pushed by others too. NYT, WAPO, WSJ, BBC, MSNBC which favour centre left.

[Oracle]

It's called reading the enemy. You should learn it. You gleam a whole bunch of information that way.

Thank you for reminding me. I try to do that most of the time.

[hboGYT]

Why call up the WH and threaten FOX then about her?

They did that? O.o Is there an official statement from the WH?

This will have to wait for further interviews with her. One is not enough. Luther mentioned 4h interview but only 13 mins released so far. So there will be more to come.

Agreed.

"Already posted those in the thread, post #120 & #139
No photoshop is there


China witheld crucial info by covering things up until they could not any longer. By then the damage was done.

She's corroborating by adding her bit"

WAB logged me out and lost my reply. :(

My take is, she was probably not the one who forced CCP's hand in releasing the research results; and she did not have proof of human-to-human transmission, only a conjecture.

What I think she can corroborate suspicious practices i.e. a lot of circumstantial evidence, which was your original point? I think I've lost the plot a little.

You've convinced me somewhat that she's not cashing out. Not 100% sold, but we will see.

Nothing, he'd just walk out of it which he threatens to do but has not so far. Because according to Bolton he needs their help to get re-elected.

CCP does not care if they kill their citizens.

I would only believe this, if one of the China experts here said it. The CCP has a social contract with the people. Can they survive that many deaths?

[Oracle]

I would only believe this, if one of the China experts here said it. The CCP has a social contract with the people. Can they survive that many deaths?

What China expert? The Colonel can't be everywhere all the time. As far as I can see, Asty remains mostly busy. People have a life. Why don't you do your own goddamn research? CPC survived ~ 20 million deaths due to the Cultural Revolution. Yeah, Hitler had a social contract with the Jews. Stalin had one with the Ukrainians, holdomor. Social contract my ***.

[hboGYT]

What China expert? The Colonel can't be everywhere all the time. As far as I can see, Asty remains mostly busy. People have a life. Why don't you do your own goddamn research? CPC survived ~ 20 million deaths due to the Cultural Revolution. Social contract my ***.

You forgot DOR XD.

They're not obligated to post on WAB at all. It'd be good if they could, on this topic.

Why don't I do my own research? I do, but I supplement it with expert knowledge.

Cultural revolution happened during Mao's era. Mao had a strong cult of personality. I don't think Xi can match it.

I've also read that the CCP gains its legitimacy through a social contract, e.g. promise of territorial integrity and economic growth, the loss of which would threaten CCP's rule. I didn't invent social contract.

[Oracle]

You forgot DOR XD.

They're not obligated to post on WAB at all. It'd be good if they could, on this topic.

Why don't I do my own research? I do, but I supplement it with expert knowledge.

Cultural revolution happened during Mao's era. Mao had a strong cult of personality. I don't think Xi can match it.

I've also read that the CCP gains its legitimacy through a social contract, e.g. promise of territorial integrity and economic growth, the loss of which would threaten CCP's rule. I didn't invent social contract.

Choose what you may. Staff here are very knowledgeable too. But I wouldn't count on spreadsheet hotshots for my facts.

Xi has outgrown Mao. There's nothing peaceful about the rise of China, been saying that for 10 years, more than 6 years in this very board. I wouldn't be surprised if Covid-19 was specifically engineered by the communist regime for some geo-political gain. Nah, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Territorial integrity? Aksai Chin/Shaksgam Valley is Indian land that China has occupied illegally. Now these thugs wants Arunachal Pradesh/Ladakh. China is not the Roman Empire, Alexander died before enjoying his conquests. How much is enough? Territorial integrity is a cause of concern for democracies, and a farce for authoritarian regimes. The only thing keeping CPC in power is economic stability, which I'm afraid will lose shine in some years, and ofcourse guns and bullets and tanks.

[Double Edge]

They did that? O.o Is there an official statement from the WH?

Just what Luther said

My take is, she was probably not the one who forced CCP's hand in releasing the research results; and she did not have proof of human-to-human transmission, only a conjecture.

What I think she can corroborate suspicious practices i.e. a lot of circumstantial evidence, which was your original point? I think I've lost the plot a little.

You've convinced me somewhat that she's not cashing out. Not 100% sold, but we will see.

I find most of the time in IR, circumstantial is all there is. Clinching evidence is rarely the case. Or let's say not released to the public.

I would only believe this, if one of the China experts here said it. The CCP has a social contract with the people. Can they survive that many deaths?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure

Hushed up the deaths of close to a quarter million for decades and only recently admitting it.

When you can control the flow of information and silence dissenters & whistle blowers its not hard to hide failures.

There is a strong incentive to do just that.

CCP loves cover ups.

[Oracle]

US accuses two Chinese hackers of seeking to steal coronavirus vaccine research

[DOR]

You forgot DOR XD.

They're not obligated to post on WAB at all. It'd be good if they could, on this topic.

Why don't I do my own research? I do, but I supplement it with expert knowledge.

Cultural revolution happened during Mao's era. Mao had a strong cult of personality. I don't think Xi can match it.

I've also read that the CCP gains its legitimacy through a social contract, e.g. promise of territorial integrity and economic growth, the loss of which would threaten CCP's rule. I didn't invent social contract.

Thanks for the invite.

Anyone who compares Hitler to Mao doesn't understand the difference between specific, targeted, deliberate genocide and policy-based unintended consequences. Stalin's purge of the Kulaks has some characteristics that are similar to the early 1950s Chinese purge of landlords, but neither comes close to Hitler's Final Solution. The deliberate targeting of Cossacks might qualify, however.

When 20 or 50 million died in the Great Leap Forward, it wasn't because someone said, “Let's kill a bunch of people who have these particular characteristics.”
Start by understanding that simple phrase.
If you can't do that, just drop out of the discussion.

Next, the Cultural Revolution (GPCR). There were several large-scale massacres in the late 1960s, including one estimated at resulting in up to 500,000 deaths. Taking only the larger (100+) and better documented cases, the numbers for the entire GPCR are below 750,000 … and no one has ever suggested that they were all deliberate policy consequences. Any serious scholar is going to acknowledge that there were huge numbers killed as revenge for past grievances, or for a host of other reasons.

Finally, Xi Jinping.

Xi has outgrown Deng Xiaoping, but nobody in China was able to outgrow Mao, except Deng (and, he did it by sidestepping Mao).

Deng started his reforms by compromising with anyone who would oppose the Gang of Four Maoist extremists, who were the main culprits / beneficiaries of the GPCR. Then, he purged those who were insufficiently contrite and willing to start afresh (e.g., Hua Guofeng, Wu De, Ji Dengkui, and Chen Xilian). Next, he designed a leadership succession process that was aimed an ensuring no one could ever again do what Mao did.

Xi Jinping tossed that program aside, but he still has to deal with the CCP, the PLA, and political factions. That's the part of Maoism that Xi can't (yet) get rid of.

The day Xi Jinping declares himself something other than head of the party, say emperor, is the day we can say he outgrew Mao.

And, as the man said about 40 years ago, “Yes, they love their children, too.”


- - - - -

Banqiao Dam failure as a topic in this thread?
Seriously?

[667medic]

I don't think that it is fair to consider GLP and GCPR as deliberate attempts to kill people, perhaps GCPR a little bit.

GLP seems like actually an earnest attempt to propel China to industrial era. It was doomed to fail. The steep drop in population growth might have been due to several reasons. People died of starvation but people might have also simply decided not to have kids during tough times. The political consequences of GLP sowed the seeds for GCPR, where Mao's aim was to wrest back control. The violence happened at the local level when kids suddenly realized that they were no longer accountable. Others decided to settle old scores or get rid of opponents....

[Oracle]

Hitler, Mao, Stalin - all are faces of the same devil inside men. Those that want power at the cost of everything and anything. These people are evil to the core. History counts genocide as genocide, it doesn't hide behind the excuse of unintended consequences. For a moment, let's say those millions of lives lost were unintended consequences, since 'unitended consequences' is assumed here, should I also assume that readers/writers today who propose such ideas has access to Mao's ghost, or perhaps maybe has a copy of the 'Little Red Book' in the basement which he/she reads in delight. China/Pak/NKorea are very much alike. Funny, how Pakistanis now, just to whitewash their Army's failure in the 1971 war and the genocide perpetrated, say that East Bengal anyways would have separated since those Black short Bengalis had nothing in common with those fair tall Pakistani Punjabis. Unintended consequences, fellas, would be 2000 deaths, or say even 5000 deaths, after which common sense should take over, that, NO, the screwed policy that came from satanic minds is not working.

And for all the sugar coating China and Xi gets, Xi has outgrown Mao. 'Xi Jingping Thought' is now in the Constitution of the CPC. Xi is emperor for life. Until murdered in his sleep or poisoned or overthrown & exiled.

A devil is a devil is a devil.

[DOR]

I won't even try to address the definition of "evil;" too many examples and exceptions.

For those interested in 1950s China, read these (in order):
Bachman, David (1991). Bureaucracy, Economy, and Leadership in China: The Institutional Origins of the Great Leap Forward. New York: Cambridge University Press
Dikötter, Frank (2010), Mao's Great Famine: The History of China's Most Devastating Catastrophe, 1958–62, Walker, ISBN*978-0-8027-7768-3

Given the deliberate and necessary decentralization, comprehensive lack of rapid transport and communications, and vague management style Mao preferred, there is no prospect of the Great Leap Forward and subsequent famine being desired outcomes of a deliberate policy choice.

[Officer of Engineers]

Hitler, Mao, Stalin - all are faces of the same devil inside men.

1) Lay off the evil/devil schtick. It does nothing to help you to understand these men.
2) If you don't think there are major differences between Hitler, Mao, and Stalin, then you cannot understand how they've done harm.
3) Despite the harm they've done, their countries and people followed them through hell and highwater.
4) Their respective peoples saw them as angels if not gods.
5) It took a monster to kill a monster (Stalin vs Hitler and Mao vs Chiang Kei Shek).
6) All three men turn their countries into major world powers (Chiang Kei Shek would have more than likely turn China into a banana republic).

[Oracle]

[DOR]

In my experience, FaLu Gong is not widely considered to be a reliable and balanced source.
Not like, say, Fox News or Breitbart... more extreme.

But, hey. If that's the kind of propaganda you need to make your point, just be sure to give credit where credit is due.