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Thread: China's Uighur problem

  1. #1
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    China's Uighur problem

    Thought we had a thread on this. We did. It's here

    Topic don't stop just cause it got closed. This will be part deux

    China Rebukes House Bill Condemning Crackdown On Uighurs | NPR | Dec 04 2019

    The bipartisan bill, which passed the House in a 407-1 vote, condemns "gross human rights violations" against the Uighurs and calls for "an end to arbitrary detention, torture, and harassment of these communities inside and outside China."

    The bill, which now goes to the Senate where passage seems certain, could further complicate movement toward a deal with China to end the ongoing trade war with Washington.

    The measure passed Tuesday states that since 2014, Chinese authorities have detained some 800,000 Uighurs and other ethnic minorities and subjected them to brutal conditions.

    The White House has not signaled whether the president will sign the bill. The Senate passed a similar measure in September. Sen. Marco Rubio, a sponsor of the bill, said, "I look forward to working with my Senate colleagues to get it passed and sent to the President for enactment."
    What does this bill do ?

    It also calls on President Trump to take action to sanction senior Chinese officials involved in the abuses in Xinjiang.

    The measure also calls for imposing export restrictions on technologies used to surveil the minority populations.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    And what is up with the white house ?

    Trump comments, Uighur bill hit prospects of U.S.-China trade deal | Reuters | Dec 04 2019

    Has reuters modified their title since. There is no comment by Trump in this article ?

    The White House has yet to say whether Trump would sign or veto the bill, which contains a provision allowing the president to waive sanctions if he determines that to be in the national interest.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    About that health checking app, this is on the mass surveillance theme



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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Here's the run-down on the officials (and immediate family members) barred from traveling to the US, and subject to seizure of assets held there:

    Chen Quanguo (陈全国) is the CCP Secretary of the Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region and a member of the 19th Politburo. Prior to his current position, he was party boss in Tibet (2011-16), and Governor and Acting Governor of Hebei Province (2009-11). In Henan Province, he ran the Provincial School of Administration and Party School (2005-09) while serving as Deputy Secretary (2003-09). He also ran the Henan CCP Organization Department (2000-04), served as Vice Governor (1998-01), and as Acting Mayor of Luohe City (1996-98). He also has stints in the senior leadership of Pingdingshan and Suiping cities, also in Henan. Chen Joined the CCP in 1976 and has an economics degreee from Zhenghou University and an Econ MA from Wuhan Automotive Polytechnic University. He was born in Pingyu, Hunan Province, in 1955. Chen seems to be a protege of former PBSC member Li Changchun, and worked him and with Premier Li Keqiang when all three were in Henan Province.

    Wang Mingshan (王明山) is the head of Xinjiang's Public Security Bureau (PSB).

    Zhu Hailun (朱海仑) is Xinjiang CCP Deputy Secretary (2016-) and a former party head of Urumqi, the capital city (2009-16). Although he is a Han born in Jiangsu (1958), he speaks fluent Uyghur and has been based in the province since shortly after joining the CCP in 1980.

    Huo Liujun (霍留军) was party secretary of the Xinjiang PSB.
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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Waiting for the UK to do the same. So far they have not targeted any official from China

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    Is cultural and demographic genocide a fair label for what China is doing?

    Do people think that this is as dangerous as china gets or fast forward 20 years do people see the potential for an even greater evil?

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tantalus View Post
    Is cultural and demographic genocide a fair label for what China is doing?

    Do people think that this is as dangerous as china gets or fast forward 20 years do people see the potential for an even greater evil?
    Yes and yes. Makes 2 of us that think alike.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    When forecasting X years into the future, it is very useful to go X years into the past, and remind yourself what it was like, how much can change in that time frame, and how easy it is to extrapolate from recent trends that may not continue exactly as they are seen at this time.

    Having done formal 2, 5, 10, 20, and 50 year forecasts, I can tell you the shorter ones are the worst.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOR View Post
    When forecasting X years into the future, it is very useful to go X years into the past, and remind yourself what it was like, how much can change in that time frame, and how easy it is to extrapolate from recent trends that may not continue exactly as they are seen at this time.

    Having done formal 2, 5, 10, 20, and 50 year forecasts, I can tell you the shorter ones are the worst.
    I agree its a fools errand to predict the future. Logically longer term forecasts are even less likely to predict accurately.

    I agree using history while being extremely careful to not fall into the cavernous trap of hindsight bias is a very useful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias

    That said It might be time we treat China as a grave threat and try to create dialogue that hedges against the worst outcomes.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tantalus View Post
    Is cultural and demographic genocide a fair label for what China is doing?

    Do people think that this is as dangerous as china gets or fast forward 20 years do people see the potential for an even greater evil?
    Would the great leap forward & cultural revolution come close for your first sentence ?

    What terrible things have these people not already done.

    Could they top it, not in their country.

    They've already sorted out their majority population.

    The Tibetans have been dealt with. HK is a work in progress.

    Who else is left after the Uighurs ?

    The danger i see is smaller countries along the periphery enacting Chinese laws that are as repressive.

    Any country that China has a veto with. As a kowtow.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jul 20, at 20:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Would the great leap forward & cultural revolution come close for your first sentence ?

    What terrible things have these people not already done.

    .
    It's a good point. The GLF probably dessrves the title of the greatest disaster of the 20th century. In my mind, rightly or wrongly, I have divided these chinas into two. The great Leap Forward was a China that was largely defined by ideology and incompetence. Todays China is defined by ruthlessness and competence and therefore the Uighurs are potentially the first terrible step of this new China...

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post

    They've already sorted out their majority population.

    The Tibetans have been dealt with. HK is a work in progress.

    Who else is left after the Uighurs ?

    The danger i see is smaller countries along the periphery enacting Chinese laws that are as repressive.

    Any country that China has a veto with. As a kowtow.
    It would be the Han and the irresistible temptation to apply ai and survelliance technology that surpasses even orwells wldlest dreams.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post

    The danger i see is smaller countries along the periphery enacting Chinese laws that are as repressive.

    Any country that China has a veto with. As a kowtow.
    I agree and not just the periphery. China is showing what is possible and has only just begun, exportation of its technology and laws are a grave concern. Now more than ever we could do with the promise of American Exceptalism being fulfilled, but the US needs to atleast deliver on the basic premise it promises its own citizens and not divide internally even further. Atleast both sides have coalesced around the idea that China is a problem and the old strategy has failed. The best thing the USA can do is fix its own problems first and quickly.

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