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Thread: The Cult of Donald Trump

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    My question is why haven't these sacred instiutions struck back? McCarthy was held back by these institutions. They should have done the same to Trump.
    I would add to the above:

    A lot of things should've happened, given what a obvious moral and legal sewage dump that Donald Trump is, he should've gone down in flames within minutes of his announcing his candidacy. But he didn't.

    Given what he said about POW's (both in 1999 and in 2015), he should've been figuratively dragged out of Trump Tower and figuratively given the Mussolini-and-his-wife treatment, in a political sense. But he wasn't.

    And on and on and on and on. We all know what kind of person Donald Trump is. No need to list it all, and I don't have the physical strength to type for that long.

    Instead, 62,984,828 Americans decided that these things didn't matter enough. And because of the Electoral College, the votes of 65,853,514 more Americans weren't enough to keep a man like Donald Trump out of the highest office of this country. A office wherein you swear a solemn oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, indeed the sacred institutions of this country, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    But Donald Trump has never read the Constitution. He only expresses contempt for it.

    And now because of 53 Americans in the Senate, his crimes will go unanswered.

    And because of 5 more Americans in the Supreme Court, it is entirely possible that he will effectively be given the legal immunity of an unchecked autocrat, thus able to as his lawyer has argued in a court of law, be free from prosecution for anything, up to and including murder.

    As I mentioned, this possibility will hinge on exactly 1 American.

    And that's how democracy crumbles, one easy, painless step at a time.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    I would add to the above:

    A lot of things should've happened, given what a obvious moral and legal sewage dump that Donald Trump is, he should've gone down in flames within minutes of his announcing his candidacy. But he didn't.

    Given what he said about POW's (both in 1999 and in 2015), he should've been figuratively dragged out of Trump Tower and figuratively given the Mussolini-and-his-wife treatment, in a political sense. But he wasn't.

    And on and on and on and on. We all know what kind of person Donald Trump is. No need to list it all, and I don't have the physical strength to type for that long.

    Instead, 62,984,828 Americans decided that these things didn't matter enough. And because of the Electoral College, the votes of 65,853,514 more Americans weren't enough to keep a man like Donald Trump out of the highest office of this country. A office wherein you swear a solemn oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, indeed the sacred institutions of this country, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    But Donald Trump has never read the Constitution. He only expresses contempt for it.

    And now because of 53 Americans in the Senate, his crimes will go unanswered.

    And because of 5 more Americans in the Supreme Court, it is entirely possible that he will effectively be given the legal immunity of an unchecked autocrat, thus able to as his lawyer has argued in a court of law, be free from prosecution for anything, up to and including murder.

    As I mentioned, this possibility will hinge on exactly 1 American.

    And that's how democracy crumbles, one easy, painless step at a time.
    Man, you can be frightening at times but rightfully so...

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Man, you can be frightening at times but rightfully so...
    Yeah, but you know, "TDS".
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...in-his-corner/

    A new Pew Research Center poll shows the barrier Democrats face in removing Trump from office or even in getting GOP senators to vote with them on new witnesses and evidence. The poll shows 32 percent of Republicans and GOP-leaning voters say Trump has “definitely” or “probably” done illegal things since he launched his campaign for president. But even among that smaller group of more Trump-critical voters, they strongly oppose removing him from office. Fully 59 percent of those who believe Trump has probably committed crimes say he should not be removed, while just 38 percent say he should.

    The poll question, as with all poll questions, is subject to caveats and nuances. Most of those Republican and GOP-leaning voters, importantly, only say Trump has “probably” committed a crime (23 percent) rather than that he “definitely” has (9 percent). Perhaps they don’t believe you should be removed from office based on something that isn’t completely proved, which is reasonable. Maybe a few of them even have more innocuous crimes in mind, rather than obstruction of justice or public corruption.

    But this is also a sizable portion of Trump’s base — one-third — that volunteered to a pollster that they believe a GOP president has broken the law since he entered politics, and they have come down decisively against removing him from office. And not only have they come down decisively against such a drastic step; they also support him. The same poll shows just 18 percent of Republicans and GOP-leaning voters disapprove of Trump.

    In other words, at least around half of GOP-leaning voters and Republicans who think Trump has broken the law still don’t disapprove of him.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    As my late father used to say....I fear for the Republic.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Temporary until the Trump-packed and conservative-dominated Supreme Court votes on it. This will hinge entirely on Chief Justice Roberts deciding if the President is a monarch accountable to no one, or if he is indeed the constitutionally-bound president of a representative democracy, required to adhere to the rule of law.

    It will literally come down to one man's interpretation of Donald Trump's dictatorial fantasies.
    Any idea when the SC will vote or is it rule on this ?

    You seem to think a republican heavy senate is the same as a Trump packed SC.

    Concept of precedent does not matter in the Senate. It does in the SC. In the common law system.

    I cannot imagine how he can be declared a monarch and not a constitutionally bound president of a representative democracy.


    I would like that as well. Won't happen as long as Trump and the GOP are able to stop it. Because they absolutely will.


    No, it does not mean that "we're not supposed to have such a law". It means that that particular court ruled as such.

    The courts have also ruled that "the Constitution of the United States was not meant to include American citizenship for black people, regardless of whether they were enslaved or free"


    It is struck down as unconstitutional, meaning that it was not part of the requirements laid out in Constitution, which do not include "turn over your tax returns" before you can run for President.
    So this law was blocked on a simple technicality. Not in the constitution, cannot have it.

    Tell me, is the President supposed to pay taxes then ? why can't he just say he does not want to for the term he is president.

    What are his obligations here.

    Is he an unaccountable monarch or not ? your SC has yet to rule on that one.

    But again, the Constitution has also stated that Congress shall not pass any law that would restrict the importation of slaves into the United States (prior to 1808).

    So, the whole point is, what is actually needed is a Constitutional amendment. Which is, as stated, a pipe dream.
    When i compare constitutional amendments between our two countries. US has only around thirty after over two hundred years. India is well past a hundred in less than as many years since we had a constitution.

    US attitude to amendments is very conservative. I don't see this as a bad thing if the document is good enough.

    See above. Until a constitutional amendment is made and ratified, you can run for president even if you're an incurable tax cheat and until you somehow get caught, you'll stay in office. So make damn sure you do everything you possibly can to keep your returns out of the "wrong" hands.
    The fundamental cognitive problem foreigners have with this tax thing is i cannot recall any world leader past or present being under suspicion of not paying their taxes.

    It should not, would not, could not, happen elsewhere.

    Previous US presidents have complied so it never came up. But now that it has indicates there is a loop hole

    To be suspected of tax cheat and a leader of the country is absurd.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jan 20, at 20:20.

  7. #67
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    No DE, this is not grandstanding. This is not "talking out of his sides". This is not fear-mongering. This is not a interpretation by the mainstream press. This is not the Democrats accusing him of anointing himself as king.

    This is an actual legal defense, made by Trump and his lawyers, in multiple courts of law, that has now reached the highest court in the land.

    Do you see now why the situation is so serious?
    When can it be said that those defenses have been given a proper test ?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    I would add to the above:

    A lot of things should've happened, given what a obvious moral and legal sewage dump that Donald Trump is, he should've gone down in flames within minutes of his announcing his candidacy. But he didn't.
    I remember Trump promoting his "drain the swamp" campaign. He knew we were in a mess and he was in that mess too. Apparently it worked, at least enough that he doesn't say that anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Given what he said about POW's (both in 1999 and in 2015), he should've been figuratively dragged out of Trump Tower and figuratively given the Mussolini-and-his-wife treatment, in a political sense. But he wasn't.
    Trump was from New York (hes moving to Florida after the presidency). If there's anything that most people in the world know about New Yorkers its that they come off as rude and say a lot of things that they really don't mean. Trump had a TV show, the world could see the way he was. Nobody thought he really believed what he said. Its a NY thing and most people just accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    And on and on and on and on. We all know what kind of person Donald Trump is. No need to list it all, and I don't have the physical strength to type for that long.

    Instead, 62,984,828 Americans decided that these things didn't matter enough. And because of the Electoral College, the votes of 65,853,514 more Americans weren't enough to keep a man like Donald Trump out of the highest office of this country. A office wherein you swear a solemn oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, indeed the sacred institutions of this country, against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post

    But Donald Trump has never read the Constitution. He only expresses contempt for it.
    I would give Trump the benefit of the doubt and believe he knows the Bill Of Rights. Maybe not word for word but hey, hes spent so much time in court through most of his professional life and has had more talks with his lawyer(s) than most people that have real legal representation its sort of daunting to think that he wouldn't know what our legal boundaries and rights are.


    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post

    And now because of 53 Americans in the Senate, his crimes will go unanswered.

    And because of 5 more Americans in the Supreme Court, it is entirely possible that he will effectively be given the legal immunity of an unchecked autocrat, thus able to as his lawyer has argued in a court of law, be free from prosecution for anything, up to and including murder.

    As I mentioned, this possibility will hinge on exactly 1 American.

    And that's how democracy crumbles, one easy, painless step at a time.
    I can't argue with you there, I'm not that close to Trump or anyone he's associated with. I can only go with what I see in the news. I know about his track record in business, I know that he could've been taken many opportunities to be very cruel and damaging but didn't. He wouldn't be able to get away with direct murder, he's stalked by the Secret Service 24/7 for the rest of his life now. There's no doubt though that if he wanted to get somebody bumped off he sure does got that power and the resources to back it. I just don't think thats his central objective in life. But, if he is guilty of something real horrible well then I am probably the last person to ask about that.
    Last edited by Wonderful Plans; 23 Jan 20, at 20:48.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Any idea when the SC will vote or is it rule on this ?
    "By June" is what I've read

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    You seem to think a republican heavy senate is the same as a Trump packed SC.

    Concept of precedent does not matter in the Senate. It does in the SC. In the common law system.
    Yes, I do believe that. The effect will be the same. As I said, it will likely come down to Chief Justice Roberts breaking a tie vote. Trump appointees Kavanaugh and Gorsuch will almost certainly vote in favor of Trump. The same will be true of Justices Thomas and Alito. The other 4 justices will almost certainly vote against Trump. Thus, Roberts will break the tie either way. And he tends to vote conservatively

    If precedent mattered in this case to the Supreme Court, they would've simply quoted United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974) and Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. 681 (1997) and then refused to hear the case entirely, thus enabling the lower court's decision to stand. They did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    I cannot imagine how he can be declared a monarch and not a constitutionally bound president of a representative democracy.
    I was not being literal. "Declared a monarch" was a figure of speech. The effect with regards to the subject at hand will be the same, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So this law was blocked on a simple technicality. Not in the constitution, cannot have it.
    No, not a technicality. And certainly not a simple one. But you can correct: In this particular case, eligibility for being President, the Constitution is clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Tell me, is the President supposed to pay taxes then ? why can't he just say he does not want to for the term he is president.

    What are his obligations here.

    Is he an unaccountable monarch or not ? your SC has yet to rule on that one.
    The President is supposed to pay taxes. The President is supposed to do many things. There are also many things the President is not supposed to do. However Donald Trump does not feel bound to the rules. He never has. And his actions demonstrate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    When i compare constitutional amendments between our two countries. US has only around thirty after over two hundred years. India is well past a hundred in less than as many years since we had a constitution.

    US attitude to amendments is very conservative. I don't see this as a bad thing if the document is good enough.
    I believe your conclusions are correct, the US Constitution as written, was a very good document and amendments to it should be very very cautiously approached.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The fundamental cognitive problem foreigners have with this tax thing is i cannot recall any world leader past or present being under suspicion of not paying their taxes.

    It should not, would not, could not, happen elsewhere.

    Previous US presidents have complied so it never came up. But now that it has indicates there is a loop hole

    To be suspected of tax cheat and a leader of the country is absurd.
    It happened to Richard Nixon. He was a tax cheat, denied it, was caught, then pardoned for all crimes by Gerald Ford. Nixon's tax lawyer however went to prison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    When can it be said that those defenses have been given a proper test ?
    When the Supreme Court makes its decision. Because apparently United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974) and Clinton v. Jones, 520 U.S. 681 (1997) were not enough of a test for them.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    I remember Trump promoting his "drain the swamp" campaign. He knew we were in a mess and he was in that mess too. Apparently it worked, at least enough that he doesn't say that anymore.
    Trump also promised that Mexico would pay for his big beautiful Wall. He doesn't make that promise anymore. He doesn't even mention it anymore. Does that mean that Mexico is paying for the Wall? No, it doesn't because they have not and will not pay one cent.

    Trump hasn't drained the swamp. He's filled it with laughably unqualified appointees and genuine swamp creatures. His record of appointees is clear on that. And the competent adults that he did appoint have long since quit in utter disgust. What does that tell you about Trump's swamp-draining abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    Trump was from New York (hes moving to Florida after the presidency). If there's anything that most people in the world know about New Yorkers its that they come off as rude and say a lot of things that they really don't mean. Trump had a TV show, the world could see the way he was. Nobody thought he really believed what he said. Its a NY thing and most people just accept it.
    Have you noticed that the same people who said they voted for Donald Trump because he says what he means, have spent the last 3+ years having to explain that he didn't mean what he said?

    When Donald Trump said POW's aren't heroes because they got caught, he said exactly what he believes. He's said it on multiple occasions and then doubled down on it later. There was not ambiguity there. He knows what he said and he meant it.

    Donald Trump being from New York and the perceived rudeness of New Yorkers has absolutely nothing to do with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    I would give Trump the benefit of the doubt and believe he knows the Bill Of Rights.
    "The benefit of the doubt"? The man swore a solemn oath to support and defend a document, the master blueprint for the governance of this nation, and you're willing to give him sufficient credit for knowing...a fraction of that document? And that's enough to give him the benefit of the doubt? Is that truly what you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    Maybe not word for word but hey, hes spent so much time in court through most of his professional life and has had more talks with his lawyer(s) than most people that have real legal representation its sort of daunting to think that he wouldn't know what our legal boundaries and rights are.
    Couple things: First, I don't expect the man to be able to jump up on cue and give a letter-perfect recitation of all 4,400 words. But given that solemn oath mentioned previously, I would expect that he at least knows what the Constitution allows and does not allow.

    You're right, it IS daunting to think that he wouldn't know what our legal boundaries and rights are, because he doesn't know our legal boundaries and rights are and he absolutely doesn't care what his legal boundaries and rights are President are. When Trump said "I got sued on a thing called emoluments. Emoluments. You ever hear of the word? Nobody ever heard of it before", what do you think he was referring to? Article I, Section 9, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution. And how does he feel about that Clause? "You people with this phony emoluments clause".

    Are you starting to see what kind of President is sitting in the Oval Office? And how he feels about those legal boundaries that he swore to defend and uphold?

    Daunting, isn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    I can't argue with you there, I'm not that close to Trump or anyone he's associated with. I can only go with what I see in the news. I know about his track record in business, I know that he could've been taken many opportunities to be very cruel and damaging but didn't. He wouldn't be able to get away with direct murder, he's stalked by the Secret Service 24/7 for the rest of his life now. There's no doubt though that if he wanted to get somebody bumped off he sure does got that power and the resources to back it. I just don't think thats his central objective in life. But, if he is guilty of something real horrible well then I am probably the last person to ask about that.
    You're missing the forest for the trees. This is not about Donald Trump making specific plans to go out and shoot someone. Or order someone to be bumped off. Nobody is saying that he is, and nobody has ever said that.

    This is about him arguing, in a court of law, that Donald Trump is immune from prosecution for anything, up to and including murder. Do you understand the implications of that?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    I hope that in days of gathering darkness where 'truth' and 'facts' as reality are so questioned that all those who believe in liberty can come together and preserve or restore in some cases the ancient liberties of our forefathers and mothers. In this spirit of us coming together to fight this BS lies spouted by Trumpets, Bexiteers and Muscovites I pray TopHatter will forgive me if I answer this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    I remember Trump promoting his "drain the swamp" campaign. He knew we were in a mess and he was in that mess too. Apparently it worked, at least enough that he doesn't say that anymore.
    You think the 'swamp was drained'? Trumpkin golfing; $13.8m at latest estimate. Trumpkin Mar a Lago visits costs $1m per day by some accounts - the Hotel in DC is up in court for the inauguration fund illegal funding. Trumpkin IS the swamp you fool.

    Look we all make mistakes - I have made too many to count but if you cannot do the basic background research on what you speak an opinion of then do not speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Trumpkin IS the swamp you fool.
    Let's all (starting with me) try to dial back the personal insults please. What this man is doing to the country and the rest of world is bad enough.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    Well, what I don't get is why so many people bad talk him when he's our best president since Ronald Reagan. Maybe because their names rhyme. Instead of getting emotional like little girls we should state facts and pose questions in a textbook neutral manner. You can form opinions better that way.

    Also less to read that way.

    Truth is, ultimately, it doesn't matter what he does or doesn't do. I'm not going to fuss about it. Why waste energy and add stress to my life with things like this that are 100% out of my hands and sphere of influence? It doesn't matter who the president is and what hes doing because whether I know or not doesn't change anything in my life. Its not important. If my life is awesome or shit, either way, politics doesn't change that. Its going to be just as great or just as shitty no matter what I read in the news.

    Its not like a stock market investment. Political propaganda isnt connected to my income and I'm not related to any politicians.

    So, if Trump is guilty or innocent well then, what am I suppose to do about it and why exactly should I really care?
    Last edited by Wonderful Plans; 24 Jan 20, at 07:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderful Plans View Post
    Well, what I don't get is why so many people bad talk him when he's our best president since Ronald Reagan. Maybe because their names rhyme. Instead of getting emotional like little girls we should state facts and pose questions in a textbook neutral manner. You can form opinions better that way.

    Also less to read that way.

    Truth is, ultimately, it doesn't matter what he does or doesn't do. I'm not going to fuss about it. Why waste energy and add stress to my life with things like this that are 100% out of my hands and sphere of influence? It doesn't matter who the president is and what hes doing because whether I know or not doesn't change anything in my life. Its not important. If my life is awesome or shit, either way, politics doesn't change that. Its going to be just as great or just as shitty no matter what I read in the news.

    Its not like a stock market investment. Political propaganda isnt connected to my income and I'm not related to any politicians.

    So, if Trump is guilty or innocent well then, what am I suppose to do about it and why exactly should I really care?
    You are aware that Regan liberated all of Central Europe (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Kosovo, Northern Macedonia, Bulgaria and in part Ukraine) without a shot being fired? Which countries has Trumpkin liberated from an "evil empire" without a shot being fired?

    I would add that it is in your 'sphere of influence'; you have a vote while we in Ukraine just have decide whether to fight or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post

    I would add that it is in your 'sphere of influence'; you have a vote while we in Ukraine just have decide whether to fight or not.
    In theory yes, but under my circumstances I do not have a vote and my enemies would like to keep a vote out of my hands for the longest time possible. Because of this I haven't been able to vote since 2008, at which time I didn't vote out of personal reasons. Since then though, I am not qualified to vote. Soon I will be able to vote once again but the huge question is... will I?

    As for the Donald Trump and Ronald Reagan comparison, its apples and oranges. Trump is focusing more on domestic policies than Reagan did. If Trump wins a second term I think he will accomplish twice as much as he did in his first term.
    Last edited by Wonderful Plans; 24 Jan 20, at 16:17.

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