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Thread: 2020 US/Iranian Crisis

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Well butchering is kind of out of fashion today. At least for the big players.
    Don't kid yourself. It's easy. Far too easy. It takes great discipline not to do it. The veterans of Mogadishu found it disturbing that they had no qualms shooting women and children.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by anil View Post
    The US(and its allies) knows that it cannot repell an oil embargo impossed by the shias. In the far east, fat boy has enough missiles to sink south Korea. Both elements acted as a deterrent against the US.

    Cherry on top, the introduction of nukes by both have established an ultimate deterrent. The han surely know how to play the great game.
    North Korean nukes are vulnerable to a South Korean first strike. In fact, I dare say the South Koreans are more than capable of maintaining a 24/7 air cover over all NK launch sites. Also, NKorean nukes have to be mated to their rockets, given ample time the SKoreans to bomb them to smithereens.

    Iran has no nuclear weapons. They have tested a zero yield device but thus far do not have the fissile materials for even a single warhead, verified by the IAEA.

    The US is now a net exporter of oil as is Canada.

    The ground realities do not reflect your claims.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 07 Jan 20, at 16:56.

  3. #138
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    For all who believe History shows that war-doing business is the right path, I am just here to inform it is quite the opposite

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    Iranians have been supporting the Taliban. Iran Is More Deeply Tied to ISIS Than You Think
    Not Quds. But we denounced the Taliban when they blew up the Buddhas, we denounce ISIS/Daesh when they blow up ancient sites and historical artifacts rightly in my view yet you say it is ok for Trumpkin to threaten to do similar. How do you justify why it wrong when Islamics do it but ok when a puerile self centred US President threatens to?


    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    Warnings of Counter value and counterstrike attacks are part of establishing the Deterrence. Both directly address the policy or decision-makers, not the people; neither is attached to how people are behaving on the streets. No one was shouting 'Death of USA' in Nagasaki and Hiroshima when your country attacked them with Nukes.
    Look fool; we are supposed to be better than them - we are not coming after you (in theory) because you're a bunch of scumball sand ni**ers but you are threatening us and others - and Soleimani certainly had the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of Iranians, Iraqis and Syrians on his hands. But the argument must be that we are trying to stop this - not destroy Iranian culture, which is of real intrinsic value to all the world. Go see Persepolis and tell me if you think it is a legit target.


    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    Any watcher worth his salt from either side or in Russia and China or your Generals hardly cares about Trump's eccentricities. Fortunately, they are not the victim of Trump Derangement Syndrom. The reality is you behave whichever Liberal or non-Liberal way no one likes you on this planet especially the region now in focus. Your salvation is in Conflict and dominance. Like I said in the Indian context that there are bigger games at play. I call it 'THE RUSSIAN ALGORITHM' and it is a continuation of the Cold War.

    If the problem is the Method, not the madness like another member has been continuously accusing Trump of then it is not only hypocritical but very subjective debate and adds no value. Your personal hate for Trump can not wish away the Wars your country has been fighting affecting millions if not billions.
    First you seem to labour under the mistaken belief that I am a Yank; I am not and never have been. I wasn't even alive during Vietnam and it has nothing to do with any country which has a call on my allegiance. I am Polish Ukrainian since 2015 educated in England so I think I probably know more about 'Muscovite algorithm' than you do. What part do you think Trumpkin plays in this neo 'cold war' as you describe it because from where I am sitting it looks like Trumpkin is a product of this 'Muscovite algorithm'. Not sure why my understanding of that must in some or any way stop me finding him a despicable representative of the species with his base bragging ("I am probably the greatest expert in ...."), his schoolyard bullying and all his unceasing lies. There seems to me to be no reason I can condemn him - one for being a traitor and also because he is just crass and juvenile.

    It kind of made me think though what if Iran threatened to target the most important US cultural targets to Trumpkin, what would he say was the most important US cultural target? Trump Tower?

    Another thing I find hypocritical is all these Trump fans who when Trumpkin betrayed the Kurds (which they may well come to regret) and suddenly pulled out of Syria with this isolationist type view were cheering "Yay! No more war! Troops home!" Now the reverse is happening its "Yay! Bad Iran, Kill their sites, go troops!" But when US forces pulled out of Syria and betrayed the Kurds they left it more in Iranian hands already. It is nothing to do with me or my country thank God but I would advise a long "sorry" letter to the Kurds, who are a proven fighting force, are largely secular and have a population in Iran, Iraq and Syria (as well as Turkey) aligned with a proposal to Hayastan (Armenia).

    Then there is the question of whether this assassination was lawful and basically it was only so IF it prevented imminent attack on US assets or citizens. We have seen zero proof that it prevented such action - in fact Soleimani was due to meet the interim Iraqi PM the next day - says the PM. Then there are reports that the US DoD put several options for warning to Iran in from of the Orange fool and he chose the most outrageous, included to deter him from doing something stupid. So if there were other options at all to warn Iran and Trumpkin just chose this option clearly they not telling the truth by saying that Soleimani's presence in Bagdhad at the time constituted an 'imminent threat' to US assets or citizens.

    Happy Orthodox Christmas to all those who follow the Julian calendar.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Well as for hoof in mouth disease we have this now about 52 sites. Seems Iran was divided into two camps regarding the Soleimani and was quite heated pro and con. Of course, the comment about cultural sites immediately turned that around to pissing off all Iranians as would be expected. If you want to piss off an entire population, then hit their cultural sites whether in Iran, Thailand, Russia, China, Japan or France, etc, is a sure fire way of doing it.
    If the Iranians want to have open season on Americans now they will have to rethink.

    The very important point here is to make the warning early beforehand rather than surprise them later

    From a crisis stability point of view this 52 site threat is a good thing.

    He has tried to make it as credible as he can. No way to misunderstand what he said

    Everybody heard it

    Increases deterrence against misadventures

    Preserves stability

    Should the Iranians decide to defy this threat they will only have themselves to blame

    So that's culpability after the fact taken care of as well : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Jan 20, at 20:54.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    First you seem to labour under the mistaken belief that I am a Yank; I am not and never have been. I wasn't even alive during Vietnam and it has nothing to do with any country which has a call on my allegiance. I am Polish Ukrainian since 2015 educated in England so I think I probably know more about 'Muscovite algorithm' than you do.
    Ambidex is both ignorant and delusional. Just for starters, apparently the "UK/Europe" next to your name is too difficult to read.
    I'm impressed that you took the time and effort to respond him in so much detail. I started to reply and realized there's very little point to it.
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If the Iranians decide to have open season on Americans now they will have to rethink.

    The very important point here is to make the warning early beforehand rather than surprise them later

    From a crisis stability point of view this 52 site threat is a good thing. He has tried to make it credible as he can.

    Increases deterrence against misadventures

    Preserves stability

    Should the Iranians decide to defy this threat they will only have themselves to blame

    So that's culpability after the fact taken care of as well : )
    Not if the threat isn't credible. And it isn't credible, despite what you and Ambidex think. Iran knows goddamn good and well that the US isn't going to target civilian and cultural sites and even if they were under the delusion that it might, the Pentagon slammed just the door on that idea, hard.

    Donald Trump is an irrational narcissistic sociopath that has given ample and repeated demonstrations through his words and actions that he doesn't give two shits about committing war crimes, atrocities or following any laws or rules that prevent him from stroking his ego or enriching his bank account. Fortunately for the U.S. and the rest of the world, there are still some brakes on his insanity. So for fuck's sake, drop the bullshit about the "deterrent" value of his batshit crazy threats. All Trump is doing is destroying what's left of America's image around the world.
    _________

    Pentagon Rules Out Striking Iranian Cultural Sites, Contradicting Trump

    WASHINGTON — Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper sought to douse an international outcry on Monday by ruling out military attacks on cultural sites in Iran if the conflict with Tehran escalates further, despite President Trump’s threat to destroy some of the country’s treasured icons.

    Mr. Esper acknowledged that striking cultural sites with no military value would be a war crime, putting him at odds with the president, who insisted such places would be legitimate targets. Mr. Trump’s threats generated condemnation at home and abroad while deeply discomfiting American military leaders who have made a career of upholding the laws of war.

    “We will follow the laws of armed conflict,” Mr. Esper said at a news briefing at the Pentagon when asked if cultural sites would be targeted as the president had suggested over the weekend. When a reporter asked if that meant “no” because the laws of war prohibit targeting cultural sites, Mr. Esper agreed. “That’s the laws of armed conflict.”

    The furor was a classic controversy of Mr. Trump’s creation, the apparent result of an impulsive threat and his refusal to back down in the face of criticism. When Mr. Trump declared on Saturday that the United States had identified 52 potential targets in Iran if it retaliates for the American drone strike that killed Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani, none of those targets qualified as cultural sites, according to an administration official who asked not to be identified correcting the president.

    Nonetheless, when Mr. Trump casually said on Twitter that they included sites “very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture,” the resulting uproar only got his back up. Rather than simply say that cultural sites were not actually being targeted, the official said, he decided to double down the next day with reporters flying with him on Air Force One, scoffing at the idea that Iran could “kill our people” while “we’re not allowed to touch their cultural site,” saying, “It doesn’t work that way.”

    The comments drew protests from Iran and other American adversaries who said they showed that Mr. Trump is the aggressor — and not just against Iran’s government but against its people, its history and its very nationhood. Even some of America’s international partners weighed in, with Prime Minister Boris Johnson of Britain breaking with Mr. Trump by issuing a statement through an aide warning against targeting antiquities.

    Military leaders were left in the awkward position of trying to reaffirm their commitment to generations of war-fighting rules without angering a volatile commander in chief by contradicting him. Mr. Trump’s remarks unsettled even some of his allies, who considered them an unnecessary distraction at a time when the president should be focusing attention on Iran’s misdeeds rather than promising some of his own.

    “We’re not at war with the culture of the Iranian people,” Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina and one of the president’s staunchest supporters in Congress, said on Monday. “We’re in a conflict with the theology, the ayatollah and his way of doing business.”

    Mr. Graham, a retired military lawyer in the Air Force Reserve, said he delivered that message to Mr. Trump in a telephone call on Monday. “I think the president saying ‘we will hit you hard’ is the right message,” he said. “Cultural sites is not hitting them hard; it’s creating more problems. We’re trying to show solidarity with the Iranian people.”


    Senator Jack Reed, Democrat of Rhode Island and a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said Mr. Trump’s threats would only encourage despots of the world to target antiquities themselves.

    “America is better than that, and President Trump is flat-out wrong to threaten attacks on historic places of cultural heritage,” said Mr. Reed, a former platoon leader in the Army’s 82nd Airborne Division. “Destroying some of these culturally significant Iranian sites wouldn’t be seen as just an attack against the regime in Tehran, it could be construed as an attack on history and humanity.”

    Iran, home to one of the world’s most storied ancient civilizations, has 22 cultural sites designated on the World Heritage List by UNESCO, the United Nations cultural organization, including the ruins of Persepolis, the capital of the Achaemenid Empire later conquered by Alexander the Great. Others include Tchogha Zanbil, the remnants of the holy city of the Kingdom of Elam, and a series of Persian gardens that have their roots in the times of Cyrus the Great.
    _______________
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

  8. #143
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    But when US forces pulled out of Syria and betrayed the Kurds they left it more in Iranian hands already.
    Kinda like Iraq in 2010 or Afghanistan after 2001 or even Lebanon in the mid 80s

    Curveball i throw at Iranian hardliners is why is it when some external power comes at their cost in blood & treasure and takes down two hostile regimes on your border that you do not make friends with them ??

    because they said Iran is axis of evil ? seriously!!!

    They got rid of a murderous thug you fought for the best part of a decade and failed to do.

    You massed a quarter million troops on the Afghan border against the Taliban once and did nothing more. They toppled them within a month.

    Who gives a shit what they say, look at what they did... such useful enemies they are

    How to get US to do that to India's neighbours. Pakistan & China : D


    Happy Orthodox Christmas to all those who follow the Julian calendar.
    You too
    Last edited by Double Edge; 07 Jan 20, at 21:18.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    In my time, we were expected to fight two and half war at the same time. Facing the Soviets at the Fulda Gap. Protecting Japan against the Soviet Far East. And killing North Korea at the same time.
    Interesting, so that is where that number comes from

    It's been adapted to the Indian environment, Pakistan, China & insurgents

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Pentagon Rules Out Striking Iranian Cultural Sites, Contradicting Trump
    I actually watched the CNN interview. It was a very lawyery response. Asked if that meant the Pentagon will not hit cultural sites, the response was that the LOAC would be observed.

    That is EXTREMELY telling. 1st off, the 52 target list is a DOD list, it wasn't a Trump list. That means that each of those targets are viable targets under the LOAC. However, there are risks involved and obviously some of those targets have some cultural sensitivity attached to them. Iranain backlash at such targetting MUST be conveyed to Trump as proper military men MUST DO. BUT THEY ARE LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS. Just as a Mosque or a Church is no longer LOAC protected once you stored weapons and ammunition in it.

    The LOAC will be obvserved. It is the Iranians, not the Americans, who turned those cultural sites into military targets.

    That said. Trump is a batshit crazy moron carrying a rocket launcher. If you have any sense at all, YOU DO NOT PROVOKE him when all you have is a water pistol.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I actually watched the CNN interview. It was a very lawyery response. Asked if that meant the Pentagon will not hit cultural sites, the response was that the LOAC would be observed.

    That is EXTREMELY telling. 1st off, the 52 target list is a DOD list, it wasn't a Trump list. That means that each of those targets are viable targets under the LOAC. However, there are risks involved and obviously some of those targets have some cultural sensitivity attached to them. Iranain backlash at such targetting MUST be conveyed to Trump as proper military men MUST DO. BUT THEY ARE LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS. Just as a Mosque or a Church is no longer LOAC protected once you stored weapons and ammunition in it.
    Sir, there's no question that once, as you said, someone loads a hospital or mosque full of ordnance, it becomes a legit target. It's why RMS Lusitania is sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic, for example.

    The problem is Trump's own words:

    Mr. Trump casually said on Twitter that they included sites “very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture,” the resulting uproar only got his back up. Rather than simply say that cultural sites were not actually being targeted, the official said, he decided to double down the next day with reporters flying with him on Air Force One, scoffing at the idea that Iran could “kill our people” while “we’re not allowed to touch their cultural site,” saying, “It doesn’t work that way.”
    He doesn't give a shit whether there's ordnance at those sites or not. True to his malignant thought process, he is salivating at the prospect of destroying what is near and dear to the Iranian people.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That said. Trump is a batshit crazy moron carrying a rocket launcher. If you have any sense at all, YOU DO NOT PROVOKE him when all you have is a water pistol.
    No question about it. The shame is that so many people think he's a rational, functioning human being. The appalling thing is that there are people that know that he isn't and yet still support and enable him.

    Even worse is that thanks to his insanity, the world, whether friend or foe, now sees the United States as being led by a rabid dog with little-to-no brake on his behavior, becoming no better than the North Korea of Trump's beloved Kim Jong Un.

    And that perception will linger long after Trump departs into whatever hell awaits him.
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    I actually watched the CNN interview. It was a very lawyery response. Asked if that meant the Pentagon will not hit cultural sites, the response was that the LOAC would be observed.

    That is EXTREMELY telling. 1st off, the 52 target list is a DOD list, it wasn't a Trump list. That means that each of those targets are viable targets under the LOAC. However, there are risks involved and obviously some of those targets have some cultural sensitivity attached to them. Iranain backlash at such targetting MUST be conveyed to Trump as proper military men MUST DO. BUT THEY ARE LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGETS. Just as a Mosque or a Church is no longer LOAC protected once you stored weapons and ammunition in it.

    The LOAC will be obvserved. It is the Iranians, not the Americans, who turned those cultural sites into military targets.

    That said. Trump is a batshit crazy moron carrying a rocket launcher. If you have any sense at all, YOU DO NOT PROVOKE him when all you have is a water pistol.
    Has anyone entertained the possibility that the "52 targets" Trump has stated is just another fantastical, untrue statement coming from Trump? I'd have to see it to believe it and have a hard time believing anything that comes from him and his administration.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by statquo View Post
    Has anyone entertained the possibility that the "52 targets" Trump has stated is just another fantastical, untrue statement coming from Trump? I'd have to see it to believe it and have a hard time believing anything that comes from him and his administration.
    A target list in the 1000s have been drawned up and redrawn for decades, ever since the Iranian Hostage Crisis. Trump may have picked the number 52 but the plans are decades old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Not Quds. But we denounced the Taliban when they blew up the Buddhas, we denounce ISIS/Daesh when they blow up ancient sites and historical artifacts rightly in my view yet you say it is ok for Trumpkin to threaten to do similar. How do you justify why it wrong when Islamics do it but ok when a puerile self centred US President threatens to?
    Lip service vs reality on the ground. Only a kindergarten blogger will use such an excuse to challenge a point made with examples (Link provided). I have posted a link and can post much more showing Iranian support to ISIS.

    Look fool;
    I can answer your personal attack with this adjective 'Look MADARCHOD' (Mother Fucker), but I won't.

    Rest of you moral rant I have already answered. What is your concern if Americans, in order to save their interests and keep the deterrence viable, are ready to WARN and do counter value strike on Iran?

    we
    Now you have become Yank. This is where the whole confusion comes in when you start speaking for others. Your cognitive dissonance beats me here.

    First you seem to labour under the mistaken belief that I am a Yank; I am not and never have been.
    So what? I do not care who the fuck you are; Iranian or an alien. My intention is to convey my message.

    Americans can be living in any part of the world. The kind of nonsense you spew on American internal politics can make anyone believe that you a concerned American.

    I wasn't even alive during Vietnam and it has nothing to do with any country which has a call on my allegiance.
    My only point which I myself negated was that there is no point making a sweeping Generalization because Americans have been protesting against their own Government for the wars they have been fighting against distant enemies. The reading between the lines was to convey that it can be a Treason. Simple

    I am Polish Ukrainian since 2015 educated in England so I think I probably know more about 'Muscovite algorithm' than you do.
    Tell this to retard Moderator who thinks looking at someone's ID suffices to know what nationality one can be.

    I never knew or read about the 'Muscovite algorithm' or "Russian Algorithm". I only recently developed this theory after reading certain patterns. I also boldened 'I' in my post just to convey that it is my personal opinion.

    What part do you think Trumpkin plays in this neo 'cold war' as you describe it because from where I am sitting it looks like Trumpkin is a product of this 'Muscovite algorithm'.
    Who is Trumpkin? Is it Trump? And why a non-American should indulge in continuous name-calling of a President of some another country? Dehumanizing someone's name help your insecurities?

    Trump is part of the same establishment which is fighting wars offshores; which Obama obliged to as well. I ONLY SEE THAT. When I will develop Trump Derangement syndrome I will start seeing every sundry nonsense to feel mentally secure and relevant.

    Not sure why my understanding of that must in some or any way stop me finding him a despicable representative of the species with his base bragging ("I am probably the greatest expert in ...."), his schoolyard bullying and all his unceasing lies. There seems to me to be no reason I can condemn him - one for being a traitor and also because he is just crass and juvenile.
    The school I studied taught me that when you use 'I" it means it is the weakest argument, easily refutable and a sign of humble admission of not knowing. Why it has rubbed you wrong is quite evident looking at your gang's toppled apple cart and Ad hominem attacks.

    It kind of made me think though what if Iran threatened to target the most important US cultural targets to Trumpkin, what would he say was the most important US cultural target? Trump Tower?
    Not gold but only men can make, a people great and strong..........They build a nations Piller Deep and lift them to sky.............. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Iranians are killing your (addressing Americans, not a Ukranian) Men. Towers can be built, but not the same men.

    Another thing I find hypocritical is all these Trump fans who when Trumpkin betrayed the Kurds (which they may well come to regret) and suddenly pulled out of Syria with this isolationist type view were cheering "Yay! No more war! Troops home!" Now the reverse is happening its "Yay! Bad Iran, Kill their sites, go troops!" But when US forces pulled out of Syria and betrayed the Kurds they left it more in Iranian hands already. It is nothing to do with me or my country thank God but I would advise a long "sorry" letter to the Kurds, who are a proven fighting force, are largely secular and have a population in Iran, Iraq and Syria (as well as Turkey) aligned with a proposal to Hayastan (Armenia).

    Then there is the question of whether this assassination was lawful and basically it was only so IF it prevented imminent attack on US assets or citizens. We have seen zero proof that it prevented such action - in fact Soleimani was due to meet the interim Iraqi PM the next day - says the PM. Then there are reports that the US DoD put several options for warning to Iran in from of the Orange fool and he chose the most outrageous, included to deter him from doing something stupid. So if there were other options at all to warn Iran and Trumpkin just chose this option clearly they not telling the truth by saying that Soleimani's presence in Bagdhad at the time constituted an 'imminent threat' to US assets or citizens.

    Happy Orthodox Christmas to all those who follow the Julian calendar.
    I do not care about Trump. I am here for India and what we can learn from this. My only conditional support to Trump is that he is bitch-slapping Leftist Democrats who are a source of inspiration to Indian leftists.

    No one is privy to the threat level American agencies are dealing with. You are building all your argument because (due to your personal hate) Trump is not reliable.

    BTW the proof is in the utterances. When your enemy says something you believe in it. War book Rule no. 6 (don't take it literally).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Ambidex is both ignorant and delusional. Just for starters, apparently the "UK/Europe" next to your name is too difficult to read.
    I'm impressed that you took the time and effort to respond him in so much detail. I started to reply and realized there's very little point to it.
    What happened you dropped your balls?

    I am all eyes to read you long detailed posts and answers every line.

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