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Thread: The Impeachment, Trial and Acquittal of Donald John Trump

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    See Trump had a press conference with the Finnish President today and railed the whole time against Pelosi, Schiff, and San Francisco again. Poor Finnish President as he had to sit there and listened to this stuff no doubt embarrassed. Not a single comment about Finland.
    What? Impossible! Oh wait...

    Trump Repeatedly Refuses To Answer Questions About Biden Part Of Ukraine Call

    President Donald Trump on Wednesday repeatedly evaded questions from reporters about comments he made during a July phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky regarding Joe Biden.

    During a press conference at the White House with Finland’s President Sauli Niinistö, Reuters correspondent Jeff Mason asked Trump to explain what exactly he had wanted Zelensky to do about the former vice president and his son, Hunter.

    In his long-winded response, Trump defended his phone call with Zelensky and bashed Europe for not giving more money to Ukraine. He then told Mason to ask Niinistö a question, but another reporter interrupted to press Trump about Biden.

    “Look, Biden and his son are stone cold crooked,” Trump claimed. “You know it and so do we.”

    Trump has accused then-Vice President Biden of calling for the removal of a corrupt prosecutor in Ukraine for the purpose of impeding an investigation into the Ukrainian gas company upon whose board Hunter Biden was serving. Ukrainian authorities have cleared Biden of any wrongdoing.

    Mason pushed Trump again: “But the question, sir, was what did you want President Zelensky to do about Vice President Biden and his son Hunter?”

    “Are you talking to me?” Trump asked after a few moments of silence. “Haven’t you finished with me? Listen, we have the president of Finland. Ask him a question.”

    But Mason continued to press Trump to answer the question, drawing heated pushback from the president.

    “Ask him a question,” Trump said, motioning to Niinistö. “Don’t be rude. ... I’ve answered everything. It’s a whole hoax. And you know who’s playing into the hoax? People like you and the fake news media.”


    Trump’s phone call with Zelensky is the subject of a whistleblower complaint filed by a U.S. intelligence official in August, which prompted House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to open a formal impeachment inquiry into Trump last week.

    Trump has repeatedly claimed his conversation with Zelensky was “perfect” and that he’s the victim of a “witch hunt” orchestrated by Democrats.

    Acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire testified before a congressional committee last week that he believes the whistleblower, who has not been identified publicly, “acted in good faith” and “followed the law” when filing the complaint.

    The whirlwind press conference Wednesday was eyebrow-raising from the start, with Niinistö imploring Trump to keep American democracy alive.

    “Mr. President, you have here a great democracy. Keep it going on,” the Finnish president told Trump, who raised his eyebrows and nodded in response.

    Niinistö also pushed for global action on climate change and urged Trump to work with world leaders on trade.

    Asked to elaborate on his democracy comments, Niinistö said, “I just wanted to tell him that I’m impressed with what the American people have gained during these decades, these 100 or so years. ... So keep it going on.”
    _____________
    That, my friends, is a man under an enormous amount of stress. How long before he cracks like an egg?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  2. #92
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    Only 40% of Republicans believe Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Biden, even though he admitted that he did

    Only 40% of Republicans believe President Donald Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, according to a new Monmouth University poll, even though a memo released by the White House shows that he did.

    The Monmouth poll found about 62% of Americans "believe it is likely that Trump mentioned the possibility of an investigation into Biden" during his July 25 phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

    The July 25 phone call between Trump and Zelensky is at the heart of a whistleblower complaint that accuses Trump of using the power of his office to solicit foreign interference in the 2020 election.

    President Donald Trump has publicly admitted he discussed Joe Biden with Ukraine and the White House released a memo on his July 25 phone call that shows he asked his Ukrainian counterpart to investigate the former vice president and his son, Hunter Biden. Still, only 40% of Republican voters believe he did so, according to a Monmouth University poll released Tuesday.

    The Monmouth poll found about 62% of Americans "believe it is likely that Trump mentioned the possibility of an investigation into Biden" during his phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Meanwhile, 15% say he probably did not do this and 23% are unsure.

    Split across partisan lines: 85% of Democrats believe Trump mentioned investigating Biden in the call compared to just four-in-ten Republicans.

    And even among Republicans who have heard a lot about the call, just 50% believe Trump asked Ukraine to open such an investigation, according to the poll.


    Among all Americans who have heard a lot about the call: 76% say "this conversation probably occurred," 12% say it probably did not, and 12% are unsure.

    A little over half of the public (52%) has heard "a lot about reports that Trump asked the Ukrainian president to investigate Joe Biden and his son," the poll found, while 27% have heard a little about this, and 21% have not heard anything. More Democrats (62%) than Republicans (52%) said they've heard a lot about this.

    Meanwhile, the poll found 63% of Americans said it's not appropriate for a president to make this type of request of a foreign leader.

    "At the very least, it is clear from the readout that Trump discussed investigating Biden during the call. Even though this information was released by the White House itself, more than one quarter of Republicans still say Trump probably didn't make any mention of it. This seems to be another example of partisan tribalism at work in public opinion," Patrick Murray, director of the independent Monmouth University Polling Institute, said in a statement on the poll.

    Here's what we know about the Trump-Zelensky call:
    • The July 25 phone call between Trump and Zelensky is at the heart of a whistleblower complaint that accuses Trump of using the power of his office to solicit foreign interference in the 2020 election.
    • Prior to the public release of the White House memo on the call, which was closely followed by the release of the complaint, Trump acknowledged discussing Biden with Zelensky.
    • "The conversation I had was largely congratulatory, with largely corruption, all of the corruption taking place and largely the fact that we don't want our people like Vice President Biden and his son creating to the corruption already in the Ukraine," Trump told reporters on September 22.
    • The White House memo on the call shows Trump stating to Zelensky: "There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it … It sounds horrible to me."
    • Trump has also tweeted about the conversation and mentioned the Bidens. On September 30, he said, "Very simple! I was looking for Corruption and also why Germany, France and others in the European Union don't do more for Ukraine. Why is it always the USA that does so much and puts up so much money for Ukraine and other countries? By the way, the Bidens were corrupt!"
    • And the whistleblower, citing White House officials with direct knowledge of the call, said Trump "pressured" Zelensky to "initiate or continue an investigation into the activities of former Vice President Joseph Biden and his son, Hunter Biden."


    The acting Director of National Intelligence Joseph Maguire said the complaint was "in alignment" with the White House memo on the call.

    Trump urged Ukraine to investigate Biden over baseless allegations regarding the former vice president's role in seeing a prosecutor ousted and Hunter serving on the board of a Ukrainian gas company, Burisma Holdings. There's no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of either Biden.

    Trump's primary allegation is that Biden pressured Ukraine to fire a prosecutor on behalf of his son, but from what is currently known this is not true, and the former vice president was among a number of US and European officials to push for the ouster of the prosecutor.

    The prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, was accused of slow-walking Ukraine's efforts to root out corruption. And though he'd previously overseen investigations into Burisma, by the time he was pushed out the probe was dormant.

    Regardless of the available information, Trump has seemingly convinced a significant portion of voters that Biden pushed for Shokin to be fired for his son's benefit. Monmouth found 42% of Americans say Biden "probably did exert this pressure" and 37% say this probably did not happen.

    The Ukraine scandal has sparked an impeachment inquiry into Trump. According to the Monmouth poll, 44% of Americans feel that Trump should be impeached and "compelled to leave the presidency," while 52% do not want to see him impeached. That marks an increase since Monmouth polled on this question in August and 35% supported impeachment while 59% did not.
    ____________________

    Even with Republican's studied obtuseness, the polls continue to march in a certain direction.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  3. #93
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    Trump impeachment probe gains steam with briefing, depositions

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two former officials who were engaged in the Trump administration's dealings with Ukraine will meet with U.S. congressional committees starting this week, as the impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump gains steam.

    Congressional staff was also due to attend a briefing at the Capitol on Wednesday by the State Department's inspector general, Steve Linick, according to two sources familiar with the situation.

    Staff members from the Senate and House of Representatives Foreign Affairs and Foreign Relations, Intelligence, Oversight and Appropriations committees were invited to the briefing. The session was expected to address Ukraine-related documents that have been subpoenaed by House committees.

    Following a whistleblower complaint last week, Democrats are looking into Trump's request to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy during a July 25 phone call to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden, a leading contender in the Democratic race to run against Republican Trump in the 2020 election.

    The unidentified whistleblower is said to be an intelligence agent who accused Trump of soliciting foreign interference for his personal political benefit.

    Trump has denied wrongdoing and assailed the probe.

    Kurt Volker, who resigned last week as Trump's special representative for Ukraine, was to go to Capitol Hill to give a deposition to House staff on Thursday, the day he had been asked to appear.

    Marie Yovanovitch, who was U.S. ambassador to Ukraine until she was abruptly recalled in May, has agreed to appear on Oct. 11, not on Wednesday as originally requested.

    With their deep knowledge of Ukraine, testimony by Yovanovitch and Volker could be especially important to the impeachment probe formally launched by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi last week.

    The inquiry could lead to approval of articles of impeachment - or formal charges - against Trump in the House. That would lead to a trial in the Senate on whether to remove him from office. But the president's fellow Republicans control that chamber and have shown little appetite for removing him.

    Yovanovitch was ordered back to Washington two months before the end of her three-year tour in Kiev. The career diplomat, who had served during both Republican and Democratic administrations, had been the subject of attacks in right-leaning media and Democrats had suggested her recall was politically motivated.

    MORE SUBPOENAS EXPECTED

    Over the past few days, the Democratic chairmen of the House Foreign Affairs, Intelligence and Oversight committees have issued subpoenas to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and scheduled depositions with a series of other current and former officials, as well as associates of Giuliani, as they seek to unearth more evidence of potential wrongdoing by Trump.

    Trump asked Zelenskiy during the July call to investigate Biden and his son Hunter in coordination with U.S. Attorney General William Barr and Giuliani.

    Announcements of more subpoenas and requests for depositions are expected.

    The impeachment investigation has cast a pall over Trump's re-election effort.

    On Twitter on Tuesday, Trump repeated his assertion that his call with Zelenskiy was "perfect," and attacked Pelosi and Representative Adam Schiff, the House intelligence committee chairman.

    "This is just another Fake News Media, together with their partner, the Democrat Party, HOAX!" the president tweeted.

    On Tuesday, Pompeo took to Twitter to address the investigation. He posted a letter accusing Representative Eliot Engel, the House Foreign Affairs chairman, of requesting depositions as "an attempt to intimidate, bully and treat improperly" State Department employees.
    _____________

    Tick tock, tick tock
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I truly believe that everything is going right over your head. Question is it intentional or you are simply not getting it. Well you are no student of early American history, the Constitutional Convention, and how it is applicable today.
    I'm sorry DE, but tbm3fan is correct. These events/their significance and your comprehension of them are on two different planets entirely.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    It is fairly obvious that Trump considers this person to be a snitch. Of course, it took whistleblowers to expose the Mob provided they got protection from the Mob who considered snitches to be traitors. It would seem Trump would like to expose the snitch, as was done it the old days, so it is handled as it was in the old days...
    Oh absolutely. Remember what I said back in May?

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post

    ...whistleblowers, turncoats, informants and rats literally shaking in terror to get clear of a sinking ship have taken down bigger and better organizations than Trump. And that's just for starters.


    And now, right on cue, we've got this:

    Another whistleblower has come forward, this time alleging 'inappropriate efforts' to influence Trump's tax audit
    Rep. Richard Neal, the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, which has jurisdiction over taxes, tariffs, and other social-assistance programs, sent a letter to Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin on August 8 saying that a federal employee submitted "an unsolicited communication" on July 29 outlining allegations of "inappropriate efforts to influence" the mandatory IRS audit of Trump's and Vice President Mike Pence's tax returns.

    In his letter, first widely reported this week, Neal described the whistleblower's allegations of "evidence of possible misconduct" as credible.

    "This is a grave charge that appreciably heightens the Committee's concerns about the absence of appropriate safeguards as part of the mandatory audit program and whether statutory codification of such program or other remedial, legislative measures are warranted," he wrote.

    Neal also wrote that his committee had "raised these concerns repeatedly" but that IRS Commissioner Charles Rettig had said they were "unfounded." Neal said the whistleblower's allegations "underscore the pressing need for complete and meaningful oversight" of the audit program.

    Though the president is not required by law to release their tax returns, every president except Trump has voluntarily released their tax returns or a tax summary since 1974⁠.

    He's repeatedly claimed that he cannot release them because they are under audit. The president's taxes are automatically audited by the IRS, and there is no rule or stipulation that says a person's tax returns cannot be released if they're under audit.

    Read more: Trump is facing the biggest firestorm of his presidency because his own staffers blew the whistle on him

    In July, Neal sued Mnuchin and Rettig to get ahold of six years' worth of Trump's tax returns. The court filing argued that under Section 6103 of the US tax code, the Treasury "shall furnish" any document requested by the House Ways and Means Committee chair.

    The Treasury did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    It's unclear why Trump has not released his tax returns.

    A New York Times investigation published a year ago suggested that he might have engaged in tax schemes, including fraud, during the 1990s.
    ________________

    And like I've been saying all along, the excuse that "The IRS would've found and exposed wrongdoing on Trump's part" is utterly fanciful....even without Trump corrupting everything he touches.

    Any bets that there won't be more whistleblowers, turncoats, informants and rats popping up in the future? Sinking ships are really unpleasant places to be...
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  6. #96
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Any bets that there won't be more whistleblowers, turncoats, informants and rats popping up in the future? Sinking ships are really unpleasant places to be...
    Oh, it is going to be interesting watching this whole thing simmer and simmer it will.

    We have the White House stalling on releasing anything related to the call despite the claim that it was above board. If above board then no problem releasing to prove your point one would think. Instead they stall which only makes you look more guilty as days go by. That would be impeachment material right there by obstruction of justice ala Richard Nixon.

    Trump, clearly believes the law doesn't apply to him, therefore he has no clue he is betraying the Office. However, his aides in the White House, all know different. Now many of these aides may have sold their soul to work in the White House for Trump. Many may not have realized that all that they have heard was worse, much worse. Being as how they know what went on in many cases they are prime candidates for a summons to appear before the House Committees. That would mean engaging the expense of a lawyer. That fact alone should make many aides nervous about being drawn into something that they had no control over. Nervous enough to start to think about protecting their own butts instead of Trump's.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Trump, clearly believes the law doesn't apply to him, therefore he has no clue he is betraying the Office. However, his aides in the White House, all know different. Now many of these aides may have sold their soul to work in the White House for Trump. Many may not have realized that all that they have heard was worse, much worse. Being as how they know what went on in many cases they are prime candidates for a summons to appear before the House Committees. That would mean engaging the expense of a lawyer. That fact alone should make many aides nervous about being drawn into something that they had no control over. Nervous enough to start to think about protecting their own butts instead of Trump's.
    I think one of the big telltales is going to be when Pence tries to distance himself from that infamous phone call. Oh hey, guess what??
    __________________

    Pence's Team Is Trying To Distance Itself From The Ukraine Scandal

    Vice President Mike Pence’s team continues to distance their boss from the unfolding scandal surrounding President Donald Trump’s July 25 call with Ukraine’s president, this time in a story published by The Washington Post about what the vice president knew about the call.

    In the Post story, published Wednesday, Pence team members said a senior aide to the vice president was on the phone call in which Trump pressured Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to investigate his potential 2020 opponent, Joe Biden.

    The call was the focal point of a whistleblower complaint that alleged that Trump abused his office “to advance his personal interests” and that White House officials covered up the president’s misconduct.

    Pence would have likely had access to a transcript of the call within hours, officials told the Post. They also said a five-page summary of the call would have been among the briefing notes the vice president took with him to Warsaw, Poland, for a meeting with Zelensky on Sept. 1.

    But the officials insisted Pence was not aware of the call’s significance and that the vice president was unaware of Trump’s efforts to push Zelensky for incriminating information about Biden.

    During their September meeting, Pence told Zelensky that the U.S. was not going to release millions of dollars in aid to Ukraine due to concerns that the country was not doing enough to combat corruption.

    Former officials told the Post that Zelensky likely would have interpreted the vice president’s reference to corruption as “code” for what Trump mentioned in July: unsubstantiated allegations that then-Vice President Biden used his power to kill an investigation into a gas company for which his son worked.

    But Pence’s team denied that the vice president was trying to deliver a veiled message.

    “The president consistently raised concerns about corruption and the lack of burden sharing by European partners, so having run on an anti-corruption campaign, Zelensky was receptive to those messages,” Marc Short, Pence’s chief of staff, told the Post. “The vice president, as your reporting says, reported back to the president after the meeting and the aid was released.”

    Pence has previously denied any wrongdoing in his interactions with Ukraine. In an interview with Fox News’ Sean Hannity last week, the vice president insisted his interactions with Zelensky “were all based upon proper considerations of how we support Ukraine, how we support their effort to end an era of corruption in their government and advance the interest of their sovereignty.”

    Pence told Hannity that Trump “mentioned Vice President Biden and his son [to Zelensky] in the context of us wanting to see honest government. That’s exactly what the American taxpayer would expect.”

    Trump has also vehemently denied any wrongdoing in his interactions with Ukrainian leaders. During a news conference in New York last week, the president appeared to try to deflect attention from himself by suggesting reporters look with equal scrutiny at Pence’s meeting with Zelensky.

    “I think you should ask for Vice President Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple of conversations also,”
    Trump said. “I could save you a lot of time. They were all perfect. Nothing was mentioned of any import other than congratulations.”
    ____________________

    Like any morally bankrupt piece of shit, Trump tries to spread the blame around and drag others down with him. He said Pence was involved in this noble, heroic, pure-of-motive push to root out wrongdoing by Hunter Biden...and Pence, normally a model for boot-licking sycophants everywhere, is backing up and heading for the door lol.

    What's that word...starts with the letter "M"....has to do with the energy gained by a moving object...? Oh right, MOMENTUM.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    See Trump had a press conference with the Finnish President today and railed the whole time against Pelosi, Schiff, and San Francisco again. Poor Finnish President as he had to sit there and listened to this stuff no doubt embarrassed. Not a single comment about Finland.
    At least the Finish President can sit back and relax now that he has done (well tied to do) his bit for US/Finish Diplomacy. If only our PM were so lucky!

    'Downer was a fool. I played him the entire meeting that I knew was designed to spy on my energy related work and then to ask a bizarre last minute question about Clinton-Russia. The transcripts will prove it all, folks. They exist. The Australians already flipped on him.
    — George Papadopoulos (@GeorgePapa19) October 1, 2019
    '

    Talk about no good deed.... any bets on how long it will take the Trumpeter to start attacking the credibility and intentions of Downer when he filed his initial report following his chat with Bozo here?

    Doesn't matter what information the Australian Government provides, from Trump's perspective they will come out looking like either treasonous rats or gullible fools manipulated by unnamed foreign/domestic enemies. And bang goes our intelligence sharing arrangements with the US as well as any concessions we may have got from his world war on 'unfair' trade.
    Last edited by Monash; 03 Oct 19, at 02:46.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Like any morally bankrupt piece of shit, Trump tries to spread the blame around and drag others down with him. He said Pence was involved in this noble, heroic, pure-of-motive push to root out wrongdoing by Hunter Biden...and Pence, normally a model for boot-licking sycophants everywhere, is backing up and heading for the door lol.

    What's that word...starts with the letter "M"....has to do with the energy gained by a moving object...? Oh right, MOMENTUM.
    Well Pence has one thing going for him. He can't be fired, LOL. So time to dance away...

    I will say that Pence is as straight laced as one can get even if he weren't an evangelical which, to me, is a major, major problem. I would therefore expect, given his last two years, to be absolutely loyal to Trump precisely because he is so straight laced. Trump, however, would jettison him in the blink of an eye when push came to shove. Very strange dynamics there.
    Last edited by tbm3fan; 03 Oct 19, at 03:35.

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    Speaking as relatively new Ukrainian citizen I am already proud of the part our country has played in what shall, God willing prove to be the downfall of the Trumpkin child and his criminal gang. I am however despairing of our President.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    If that's the case, then you work through American law enforcement, like the FBI. You don't try to shake down a foreign leader like some Mafia boss and send in your own personal enforcer to do your dirty work.
    I would not phrase it as shaking down a foreign leader but rather offering inducements.

    Now The question is for what.

    Say if what that leader is offering was in the national interest then is it justifiable ? Does not have to be a leader could be any foreign entity.

    If the laws are to prevent promoting corruption abroad then does American national interest take a back seat. This is not clear.

    In this case as i've understood it was for partisan gain

    Does this means Trump is violating this anti-corruption law ? Let's see.

    At the moment, Donald Trump is President of the United States, not Joe Biden. So there's a slight difference.
    Right but the answer hinges on if something against Biden is found. That is the part that gives me doubt about this line of argument.

    If nothing found Trump is guilty otherwise Biden becomes guilty.

  12. #102
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I truly believe that everything is going right over your head. Question is it intentional or you are simply not getting it. Well you are no student of early American history, the Constitutional Convention, and how it is applicable today.
    I'm not, do i need to be. No. If you are then you can enlighten me.

    Look, i've learnt not to get into the never ending rat holes these inquiries generate.

    I watch from the sidelines with a set of assumptions and test them.

    As for the intentional part what's happened to the right wingers on this site ? where are the JAD's & gunnuts of days past.

    why is it just the opposition leading narratives here. I don't trust the opposition.

    From the Mueller debacle i've learnt to look with great scepticism whenever Trump gets charged with anything.

    Come to think of it JAD & gunnut were most active when they were in opposition. Funny.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Oct 19, at 09:47.

  13. #103
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    See Trump had a press conference with the Finnish President today and railed the whole time against Pelosi, Schiff, and San Francisco again. Poor Finnish President as he had to sit there and listened to this stuff no doubt embarrassed. Not a single comment about Finland.
    This seems to be the fashion these days. Works both ways. See the Canadians. Justin comes over to India the opposition raises an unholy stink back home and he has to manage what they're saying when he is out of the country overshadowing his trip.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Oct 19, at 09:53.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    These polls are going in the wrong direction if you think that the American public does not or will not support an impeachment inquiry (at the very least) of Donald Trump. And the inquiry has barely gotten off the ground.

    Considering the man lost the popular vote to Clinton by nearly 3 million votes, overall numbers are not on his side.

    He does possess at least a modicum of awareness about his vulnerability: A majority of Americans supporting impeachment means that GOP senators will have to consider something other than slavish acquittal.

    Their loyalty to Trump ends where their reelection chances begin.
    I found that underlined quite strange. I did not consider that public support was necessary.

    I'd taken it for granted going by this thread that the inquiry would proceed.

    And then you post this

    Only 40% of Republicans believe President Donald Trump asked Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, according to a new Monmouth University poll, even though a memo released by the White House shows that he did.
    Why is a poll necessary. You either have a case or not.

    Or as i expect, you don't have a case but will charge forward regardless : D
    Last edited by Double Edge; 03 Oct 19, at 10:08.

  15. #105
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    DE,

    Why is a poll necessary. You either have a case or not.
    the poll is a good demonstration of why "case or not", it does not matter.

    a good proportion of the Republicans believe, evidence or not, that the President is innocent of any and all charges.

    the impeachment and conviction process was designed to have the format of a legal trial, as the Founders -knew- that the whole process is essentially a political decision-- but that cloaking it in legal terms made it more palatable for everyone involved.

    the GOP is not interested in keeping up this cloak because ultimately facts do not favor the President. so, the solution is to deride everything as political and undermine the legitimacy of the process, leaning on the Senate GOP to ensure that there is no conviction. this actually short-circuits the original function of the Senate, which was for Senators to act as a bulwark against partisanship.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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