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Thread: The Impeachment, Trial and Acquittal of Donald John Trump

  1. #646
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    TH,

    I know this isn't the forum for the question, but as it has been raised, is there any way to start up again somewhere else? Assuming we lose all existing posts & have to start again, that will be no worse than what happened in the past, but at least we have some stability. It would be nice to work toward building this place up again somewhere rather than simply wait around for the inevitable. While we have lost a great deal, there are some great people here who are worth interacting with in an environment with actual rules & standards - not that common a thing.

    Anyway, just my 2c. Back to the clusterfuck that is US politics.


    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

  2. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    TH,

    I know this isn't the forum for the question, but as it has been raised, is there any way to start up again somewhere else? Assuming we lose all existing posts & have to start again, that will be no worse than what happened in the past, but at least we have some stability. It would be nice to work toward building this place up again somewhere rather than simply wait around for the inevitable. While we have lost a great deal, there are some great people here who are worth interacting with in an environment with actual rules & standards - not that common a thing.

    Anyway, just my 2c. Back to the clusterfuck that is US politics.
    BF,
    It's a great question and deserves an answer.

    The answer is, it will take funds, a modicum of message board technical know-how and just plain willpower. All things that I don't have in great supply.

    To be honest, and at the risk of sounding like a complete wuss, I'm both tired and weary.
    I've spent the better part of the past 5 years contacting, asking, cajoling and outright begging Rochen to help us finish putting the board back together after the catastrophe in 2015, and get it updated properly.

    Others have helped as well, going above and beyond to see if Rochen still physically exists, because to make a long story short, my last direct contact with Rochen is more than 3 years old. Everything I have sent since then has received no reply.

    To be fair to Rochen, we're not a revenue-generating site for them and never were.

    Based on all of the aforementioned factors, I'm stunned that we're still up and running, and I'm in a constant state of figurative wincing, wondering when - not if - the knockout blow is going to come.

    Anyway, melodramatics aside, a Facebook page was created that will hopefully serve to keep us connected when that day comes. I'll share a link in the next day or so.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  3. #648
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    Beyond the Partisan Fight, a Wealth of Evidence About Trump and Ukraine

    WASHINGTON — When all the partisan posturing, parliamentary wrangling and legalistic arguing are stripped away, the impeachment process that dominated Washington for months produced a set of facts that is largely beyond dispute: The president of the United States pressured a foreign government to take actions aimed at his political opponents.

    As the Senate moved toward acquitting President Donald Trump on Wednesday, even some Republicans stopped trying to defend his actions or dispute the evidence, focusing instead on the idea that his conduct did not deserve removal from office, especially in an election year.

    Trump’s “behavior was shameful and wrong,” and “his personal interests do not take precedence over those of this great nation,” Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, said Monday. She went on to declare that she would nonetheless vote to acquit.


    Trump’s public statements, plus testimony and documents introduced during the impeachment process and revelations independent from the congressional inquiry, establish a narrative of the president’s involvement in the effort led by Rudy Giuliani, his personal lawyer, to persuade Ukraine to publicly commit to investigating two topics.

    One centered on purported efforts by Ukrainians to undercut Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign. The other was the overlap between former Vice President Joe Biden’s anti-corruption efforts in Ukraine and his son Hunter Biden’s position on the board of Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company widely associated with accusations of corruption.

    There are still unanswered questions about the details of Trump’s involvement, and additional information could emerge later.

    But a review of thousands of documents and dozens of interviews reveals how Trump developed a bitter grudge against Ukraine and then became personally involved in pressuring its leaders. Evidence of Trump’s role comes from a variety of sources.

    In His Own Words

    Some of the clearest evidence comes from Trump’s own statements, both in his phone conversation with President Volodymyr Zelenskiy of Ukraine on July 25 and in public remarks he later made.

    A reconstructed transcript of the call, made public by the White House in October, makes clear that Trump asked the Ukrainian president to pursue investigations into the Bidens and into one element of his belief that Ukraine worked against his election in 2016: a debunked conspiracy theory that Ukraine rather than Russia was behind the hacking of the Democratic National Committee, and that Ukraine had possession of a server that would shed light on the theory.

    “I would like you to do us a favor though,” Trump said, asking Zelenskiy’s government to work with Attorney General William Barr and Giuliani to pursue the investigations.

    “I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say CrowdStrike,” Trump said, referring to an American cybersecurity firm and the debunked theory about Ukraine’s involvement in the hack of the Democratic Party. “The server, they say Ukraine has it.”

    He went on to bring up the Bidens.

    “There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution, and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great,” Trump said, according to the reconstructed transcript. “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it.”

    What Trump first said in private to Zelenskiy, he later said in public. In early October, answering questions from reporters outside the White House, Trump repeated and expanded on his calls for foreign help in investigating the Bidens.

    “I would say that President Zelenskiy, if it were me, I would recommend that they start an investigation into the Bidens,” Trump said. “Because nobody has any doubt that they weren’t crooked.”

    He also suggested that Ukraine was not the only country that should dig into Hunter Biden’s international business dealings.

    “China should start an investigation into the Bidens, because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine,” Trump said.

    Trump has defended himself by saying that there was nothing wrong with asking another government for help in fighting corruption.

    Putting Power to Work

    Trump removed a U.S. diplomat from her post after Giuliani and his associates accused her of opposing him politically and impeding their push for the investigations. And the president directed other government officials to work with Giuliani as he sought a public commitment from Zelenskiy to pursue those investigations.

    In conversations with Trump in early 2019, Giuliani claimed that the U.S. ambassador to Kyiv, Marie L. Yovanovitch, a widely respected 33-year career diplomat, was hindering efforts to gather evidence from Ukrainians to defend the president and to target his rivals.

    Trump connected Giuliani with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in late March to discuss the allegations, according to an interview with Giuliani and emails showing at least two telephone calls between the men, including one arranged with guidance from Trump’s personal assistant.

    Trump ordered the recall of Yovanovitch in late April. Later, during the July phone call with Zelenskiy, Trump called her “bad news” and said, “she’s going to go through some things.”

    Trump and Pompeo “relied on” Giuliani’s claims in their decision to oust Yovanovitch, Giuliani said.

    In early May, Trump asked John Bolton, his national security adviser at the time, to call Zelenskiy to ensure he would meet with Giuliani, according to Bolton’s unpublished book manuscript. Trump and Giuliani denied Bolton’s account.

    When Giuliani failed in his efforts to meet with Zelenskiy to press for the investigations, Trump enlisted an ad hoc team to work with Giuliani. The team included Gordon D. Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union; Kurt D. Volker, then the State Department’s special envoy for Ukraine; and Rick Perry, then the energy secretary.

    When the three government officials sought to convince Trump that Zelenskiy deserved the full support of the United States, the president responded with anger toward the Ukrainians during a late May meeting. “They’re terrible people,” Trump said, according to Volker’s testimony. “They’re all corrupt, and they tried to take me down.”

    If they wanted to engage further with Ukraine, Trump told them, they would need to coordinate with Giuliani. “He just kept saying: ‘Talk to Rudy, talk to Rudy,’” Sondland later testified.

    Over the next few months, according to extensive evidence introduced in the House impeachment inquiry, Sondland and Volker would work to convince the Ukrainians that in order for Zelenskiy to be granted a key request — a high-profile Oval Office meeting signaling U.S. support for his government in its conflict with Russia — he would have to commit to the investigations sought by Trump.

    The Aid Freeze

    The White House meeting was not the only leverage used by Trump’s team in pressuring the Ukrainians.

    In late June, Trump told top aides to look into the military assistance the United States provides to Ukraine, setting in motion a process that led him to order the withholding of $391 million in congressionally approved aid that Ukraine needed for its grinding war against Russian-backed separatists.

    Trump’s order distressed officials in the White House, the Pentagon and the State Department, and eventually Kyiv, where at least some officials were aware of the aid freeze as early as July 25, according to officials in Ukraine and the United States. The freeze was not made public until the end of August.

    The senior members of Trump’s national security team tried in August to persuade him to release the aid, but he refused.

    Sondland eventually told Ukrainian officials that the release of the assistance would be dependent on Zelenskiy publicly committing to an investigation of Burisma, according to testimony in impeachment proceedings from Sondland and William B. Taylor Jr., who served as the top U.S. diplomat in Kyiv after Yovanovitch’s recall.

    The aid was released in September, after the freeze was made public and congressional Republicans lobbied Trump to release the money — and after Trump became aware of a whistleblower complaint detailing key elements of the pressure campaign. Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff, later told a news briefing that the aid had been withheld as part of the pressure campaign — and then tried to walk back his comments.

    Trump’s defense has been that he wanted to make sure the aid would not be squandered by corruption in Ukraine, and that the money was released without Zelenskiy agreeing to the investigations.

    A Lawyer and His Client

    Trump’s grievances with Ukraine date from his 2016 campaign but were channeled into action by Giuliani, the former New York City mayor who in April 2018 became part of the legal team defending the president against the special counsel’s investigation. Giuliani has repeatedly cited attorney-client privilege in refusing to divulge details of their conversations about Ukraine.

    But in interviews, public statements and material gathered by House impeachment investigators, Giuliani has acknowledged that his Ukraine-related efforts were initiated and pursued with Trump’s knowledge and consent.

    That was something he made explicit in a letter that he sent Zelenskiy in May 2019. In the letter, Giuliani sought a meeting with Zelenskiy during a planned trip to Kyiv, where, he told The New York Times at the time, he intended to press the Ukrainians to carry out the investigations sought by Trump. Giuliani canceled the trip, and the meeting with Zelenskiy never happened.

    Giuliani’s initial interest was in undermining the special counsel’s investigation by raising questions about some of the events on its periphery. He sought to cast doubt on the authenticity of a ledger showing off-the-books payments from a Russia-aligned Ukrainian party earmarked for Paul Manafort, who served as Trump’s campaign chairman in 2016. Giuliani also questioned the motivations of the Ukrainians who disseminated it and their relationships with officials at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv, who, he argued, were aligned with Hillary Clinton and out to get Trump.

    Giuliani enlisted two Soviet-born American businessmen, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, to help him connect early last year with Ukrainian prosecutors who could be of assistance. Those prosecutors made unsubstantiated claims about the Bidens’ work in Ukraine that Trump and Giuliani would embrace in subsequent months, as the president ramped up his reelection campaign and the former vice president made clear he would seek the Democratic nomination to challenge him.

    Even after Democrats began impeachment proceedings, Giuliani continued trying to collect information from Ukrainians who he argued would prove that Trump was justified in calling for Ukraine to investigate the Bidens and the ledger.

    In December, Giuliani told an associate that he briefed Trump before traveling to Budapest and Kyiv to film interviews with former Ukrainian officials. As soon as Giuliani returned from the trip, Trump reportedly asked him what he had collected. “More than you can imagine,” he replied.

    Giuliani has told his associates that he played the videos of his interviews for an appreciative Trump.
    __________

    As Trump has stated in the past, he's just fine with corruption and bribery and wants to change the law to make such things easier, not harder. It's all right there in those hyperlinks, straight from Trump's mouth and that of his Administration, if you've got the moral honesty to read it.

    This is not about corruption, much less actually fighting it. This was purely a political move to make a political rival look bad in order to affect the upcoming election.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  4. #649
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Did not reach the required two thirds vote, not even a simple majority either.
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen...peachment-vote

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Did not reach the required two thirds vote, not even a simple majority either.
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/sen...peachment-vote
    You were expecting anything else from proudly partial jurors who refused to so much as call witnesses?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  6. #651
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    So I guess the question is, what next.
    We've had being a Russian agent, colluding with the Russians, hacking Hilary's server, falsely claiming he was spied on, Mueller investigation and now impeachment 1.

    The most likely scenario is impeachment 2, based on his refusal to cooperate with impeachment 1. Watch this space.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    We've had being a Russian agent
    Eh, "agent" is a little too dignifying. Also, as OoE has pointed out, Putin is much too smart to use a dumber-than-a-pile-of-dogshit idiot like Trump as an "agent"

    Russian stooge
    Russian puppet
    Russian apologist
    Russian toady

    Any of those are much more accurate. And proven by empirical evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    colluding with the Russians,
    Yep, also proven by empirical evidence. The Russians offered help and the Trump Campaign gleefully accepted it. But that's not a big deal, after all Russia is our friend. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    hacking Hilary's server,
    I believe the accusation was that Trump publicly asked Russia (and China) to "find those emails"

    "If Russia or China or any other country has those e-mails, I mean to be honest with you, I'd love to see 'em"

    "Russia, if you are listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press."

    Within five hours of that statement, GRU operatives were attempting to hack into Clinton's e-mail servers and nonpublic accounts, according to the Mueller report.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    falsely claiming he was spied on
    An federal law enforcement investigation into the affairs of someone clearly in bed with Russia who also happens to be a Presidential candidate doesn't qualify as "spying". It's called a federal law enforcement investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Mueller investigation
    Which, tl;dr, explicitly stated that they did not exonerate the President.

    Instead the Report detailed the following:

    1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.

    2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.

    3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.

    4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.

    5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.

    6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.

    7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.

    8. Russian military hackers likely followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.

    9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.

    10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.

    11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.

    12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.

    13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.

    14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    and now impeachment 1.
    After Trump blatantly asked Ukraine for help in interefereing with the 2020 election, violating the Impoundment Act as he did so, an abuse of power, and then attempted to stymie the duly authorized Congressional investigation into those affairs....yeah, impeachment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    The most likely scenario is impeachment 2,
    Given his pathological criminality, that is a possibility, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    based on his refusal to cooperate with impeachment 1.
    That's what Article of Impeachment II was all about.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  8. #653
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    there will not be "impeachment 2", absent Trump doing another new blatant act of criminality.

    note that for a significant portion of the GOP senators, the argument is not "Trump made a PERFECT phone call". it's that Trump did something bad but that it does not reach the level of removal from office, and that as a result of all this "Trump has learned his lesson" (which is a blatantly obvious delusion, but still).
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #654
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    Considering the Mueller Report generated 18 million pages of documentation and other witnesses can still be heard from I don't see Impeachment but wouldn't be surprised if a Censure is forthcoming. House can do without any Senate consent.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
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  10. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    there will not be "impeachment 2", absent Trump doing another new blatant act of criminality.

    note that for a significant portion of the GOP senators, the argument is not "Trump made a PERFECT phone call". it's that Trump did something bad but that it does not reach the level of removal from office, and that as a result of all this "Trump has learned his lesson" (which is a blatantly obvious delusion, but still).
    Well that is what you or TH would take away from this. However, Trump has always taken the opposite lesson which is "I got away with it, hehehe, I can do it again"

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Well that is what you or TH would take away from this. However, Trump has always taken the opposite lesson which is "I got away with it, hehehe, I can do it again"
    I don't think that either Eric or I believe that Trump knows he has learned his lesson.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    Being combative and almost invoking that he and his supporters are waging a religious war now. All I can say is keep your religion out of my face or else.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/06/polit...ent/index.html

    President Donald Trump began his speech at the National Prayer Breakfast by taking veiled shots at House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who was on the stage with him as he spoke, and Sen. Mitt Romney, the morning after the GOP-controlled Senate acquitted him.

    Romney, citing his Mormon faith, was the only Republican to vote against his party and join Democrats in voting to convict Trump.

    Beginning his speech at the bipartisan annual event, Trump criticized "dishonest and corrupt people" who "badly hurt our nation" -- an apparent reference to Democrats who pursued his impeachment over what they claimed was an abuse of power in holding up aid in Ukraine.

    The President thanked "courageous Republican politicians and leaders (who) had the wisdom, fortitude and strength to do what everyone knows was right."

    He then obliquely referenced Romney and Pelosi.

    "I don't like people who use their faith as justification for doing what they know is wrong nor do I like people who say, 'I pray for you,' when they know that's not so. So many people have been hurt and we can't let that go on," Trump said.
    Pelosi has previously said she prays for the President daily.

    "We have allies, we have enemies, sometimes the allies are enemies but we just don't know it. But we're changing all that," Trump later remarked.

    Trump walked into the annual, bipartisan breakfast and immediately picked up the newspaper laid on his place setting, a hard copy of USA Today, with the headline "ACQUITTED." He displayed the headline to the room and to the cameras, to laughter from the audience.

    The President's arrival at the breakfast was soon followed by a prayer to the breakfast group by Pelosi. Pelosi prayed for the poor and the persecuted around the world. The House speaker did not bring up politics or impeachment.

    "Let us pray that the names of the persecuted always live on our lips and their courage carried through our actions. And let us pray that we honor the spark and divinity in them and in all people including ourselves and that we treat everyone with dignity and respect," Pelosi said.

    Prefacing Trump's speech, Dr. Arthur Brooks, discussed the "crisis of contempt and polarization that's tearing our societies apart."
    He called for those at the breakfast to do what was preached in the Bible: "Love your enemies."

    Brooks spoke at length about how politicians from differing parties need to treat each other with love.

    "Arthur, I don't know if I agree with you," Trump told the audience after approaching the dais. "I don't know if Arthur is going to like what I'm going to have to say."

    After slamming Democrats and Romney, the President celebrated the state of the American economy, his administration's policies to protect religious freedom and new guidance on school prayer and underscored the "sanctity of life."

    He also highlighted his administration's threat to cut off taxpayer funding to colleges and universities that "spread the poison of anti-Semitism and bad things about Christianity."

    "You better go out and vote on November 3. Because you have a lot of people out there that aren't liking what we're doing," Trump said to the group of bipartisan politicians, world leaders and religious leaders.
    The President also underscored that religious Americans are "in a fight."

    "Tell your congregation that ... we have 350 million people in our country. They're proud Americans, and they respect what we're doing, even those that you don't think so much, like us, respect us, want to be with us," Trump said. "They're respecting our fight. And we are in a fight. Religion in this country and religion all over the world, certain religions in particular, are under siege. We won't let that happen."

    In his closing remarks, Trump praised the prayer group, but veered again into what appeared to be pushback on Brooks' call to love your enemies.
    "They like people and sometimes they hate people. I'm sorry. I apologize. I'm trying to learn. It's not easy," Trump said, adding, "When they impeach you for nothing, then you're supposed to like them. It's not easy, folks. I do my best."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Being combative and almost invoking that he and his supporters are waging a religious war now.
    That's exactly what a cult does. But, you know, "TDS".
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    That's exactly what a cult does. But, you know, "TDS".
    New symptom noted. Seeing fellow countrymen as Jihadi’s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    New symptom noted. Seeing fellow countrymen as Jihadi’s.
    Denial, it's not just a river in Egypt. Apparently Americans are fundamentally (no pun intended) unable to be members of a cult.

    Also notice how you used the term "Jihadi" instead of what I actually said: Cult member. Interesting projection going on there....
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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