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Thread: The Impeachment, Trial and Acquittal of Donald John Trump

  1. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    For tops, and my phone, precedent.
    No, not Schumer's violation of his oath is not that kind of precedent, but nice try though!
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  2. #557
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Schumer considers himself a “law maker” therefore he is above rules. Rules are for the little people. Just ask Nancy.

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Schumer considers himself a “law maker” therefore he is above rules. Rules are for the little people. Just ask Nancy.
    Ehhh...ok, don't see what that has to do with his illegal actions setting the legal precedent that you're claiming, but whatever floats your boat.

    Speaking of which, how do you feel about Trump's lawyers claiming complete and total immunity from the law, up to and including shooting someone in broad daylight?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  4. #559
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Tops, just let me know when the precedent changes. Otherwise it has been and is SOP.

  5. #560
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    Meanwhile Australia with compulsory voting has, I think some measure of insulation against such problems because highly politically motivated individuals on either end of the spectrum get 'drowned' to a degree by those in the (somewhat demoralized) center who probably wouldn't vote if they didn't have to.
    This is a good explanation for compulsory voting. An idea i've been against but is necessary in the peculiar political environment of Australia.

    If the centre drops out, you get a feeding frenzy between the poles with large policy shifts from one extreme to the other depending on who wins.

    This is a recipe for instability and the consequent unrest and trouble that will surely accompany it.

    The result is neither side of politics can pander only to the needs/interests of their welded on supporters without eventually alienating that all important middle part of the bell curve. This means to some degree at least they have to align their political platforms with the middle in mind - albeit usually with clenched teeth. So I guess on in this regards we lucked out.
    This is a good outcome but what explains being on the 6th PM in the last ten years.

    There is some instability here which i'm curious to understand.

  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Tops, just let me know when the precedent changes. Otherwise it has been and is SOP.
    Well judging by what McConnell has vowed, it won't be any time soon.

    Also, don't know if you noticed this or not, but: How do you feel about Trump's lawyers claiming complete and total immunity from the law, up to and including shooting someone in broad daylight?

    You seem quite put out by Schumer and Pelosi...surely you have some thought on Trump believing and claiming in a court of law that he has total immunity from the law?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  7. #562
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    It would appear that you have trouble understanding and interpreting anything Trump. I do not believe Trump or his lawyers believe that Trump will shoot anybody. He and his lawyers believe in the separation of powers and the autonomy of the Executive Branch.

  8. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    It would appear that you have trouble understanding and interpreting anything Trump. I do not believe Trump or his lawyers believe that Trump will shoot anybody. He and his lawyers believe in the separation of powers and the autonomy of the Executive Branch.
    No, I'm pretty certain I understand what Trump's lawyers are arguing fairly well. Also, I never said that I believed that Trump or his lawyers are arguing that Trump will shoot someone (feel free to quote me where I did). '

    'No, rather, he and he lawyers have argued for complete immunity of the President (not the Executive Branch) whilst in office. They have also said nothing about "separation of powers". They simply think that Trump is totally immune from the law.
    ______________

    Trump's lawyers argue he can't be charged while in office — even if he shoots someone

    NEW YORK — Even if President Donald Trump shot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue, New York authorities could not punish him while he is in office, the president's lawyers argued Wednesday.

    Attorneys for Trump made the claim while arguing before a federal appeals court in their suit against Manhattan District Attorney Cy Vance, who has subpoenaed Trump’s tax returns.

    Trump is fighting the subpoena on the grounds that as president, he has absolute immunity from criminal indictment or investigation. His attorney said that would block Trump from being arrested and charged even if he followed through on his campaign trail claim: “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn’t lose any voters, okay?”

    Carey Dunne, New York District Attorney Cy Vance Jr.'s general counsel, said the president's position is too absolute.

    There could be examples in which a state should be able to conduct a criminal investigation of a sitting president, "if, for example, he did pull out a handgun and shoot someone on Fifth Avenue."

    Asked about that, Consovoy said a president could be charged with such a crime once he was out of office or if he was impeached and removed from office. "This is not a permanent immunity," he said.

    Judge Denny Chin pressed him on how the crime would be handled while Trump remained in office. “Nothing could be done, that’s your position?” he said.

    “That is correct,” Consovoy replied.


    The Manhattan DA subpoenaed eight years of Trump’s tax returns from his accounting firm, Mazars USA, as part of a probe into hush money payments to adult film star Stormy Daniels in exchange for her silence about an alleged sexual encounter with Trump.

    Federal Judge Victor Marrero threw out Trump’s suit seeking to block the subpoena, finding his “extraordinary” claim to be immune from criminal investigation was not supported by the law.

    Trump appealed, and the subpoena was put on hold as the case is heard. The sides made oral arguments Wednesday before the Second Circuit.

    The case is expected to ultimately make its way to the Supreme Court. Trump’s attorneys and the DA’s office made an agreement that if Trump loses in the appeals court, Vance will hold off on enforcing the subpoena as long as Trump makes his appeal to the Supreme Court within 10 days.

    “We view the entire subpoena as an inappropriate fishing expedition not made in good faith,” Consovoy told the judges.

    “Everything we’ve heard this morning makes clear the president is a target,” he said. “The district attorney just wants the president’s tax returns.”

    Unlike past presidents, Trump has adamantly refused to make his tax returns public.

    Carey Dunne, general counsel for the District Attorney, said the privilege the president’s lawyers are claiming is not founded in the law.

    “There’s no such thing as presidential immunity for tax returns,” he said.

    “He may view them as embarrassing or sensitive but tax returns do in fact get subpoenaed all the time in financial investigations,” he said. “They’re making this up, your honor.”
    ___________

    So, once again, how do you feel about that claim of total immunity for the President?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  9. #564
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    I am afraid that these interpretations that line up with and fall into the mainstream press and Democrats believe that Trump has anointed himself King. It’s all what if, hypotheticals that I am not going to attempt interpret.

  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    I am afraid that these interpretations that line up with and fall into the mainstream press and Democrats believe that Trump has anointed himself King. It’s all what if, hypotheticals that I am not going to attempt interpret.
    I'm not sure why you're deflecting on to the Democrats or the mainstream press. This has nothing to do with either. This is Trump's own lawyer speaking in a court of law claiming that the president has complete and total immunity from any prosecution whatsoever. That's not a hypothetical or a what if, It's an attempt to enshrine the presidency with complete immunity from the law.

    I'm asking you: What is your opinion on that?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  11. #566
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    This is a good outcome but what explains being on the 6th PM in the last ten years. There is some instability here which i'm curious to understand.
    In a nutshell? Internal party politics. Both sides of politics were (and of course still are) plagued by in individuals who tend to put naked personal ambition ahead of their Party's stability and of course the public image of their Party. They also have only one metric by which they measure a leaders success - will this person win us the next election. Add in a three year political cycle which is short in comparison to most Western Democracies and you end up with the situation you described.

    Fortunately it got so bad both sides of politics have been more or less forced to implement internal reforms to make it harder to oust a leader without first jumping certain administrative hoops. This seems to have slowed down the 'churn rate' somewhat. That and the fact polls were telling both major parties that the electorate was getting sick of their antics - hence more independent candidates.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

  12. #567
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    monash,

    So what exactly is your point? Are you suggesting that US politics is no more polarized and divisive now in 2020 than it was back in the late 90's during the Clinton Administration? ID so please see the below from a survey conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2017.
    my point is that impeachment has already been used as a political weapon regarding something that is of far less concern to United States prosperity and security. that backfired, as Newt Gingrich found out to his chagrin.

    the idea that "everyone will use impeachment every time from now on" is not a particularly compelling one because the parties will still need to consider the political costs for doing so. if the GOP wants to re-do 1998 with a new Dem President, then let them have the joy of it.
    Last edited by astralis; 02 Jan 20, at 14:59.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    See how easy that was my little synaptically challenged libtard?
    Congrats. You qualify from the kindergarten school of insults. Run off home before you wet yourself.

  14. #569
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    monash,



    my point is that impeachment has already been used as a political weapon regarding something that is of far less concern to United States prosperity and security. that backfired, as Newt Gingrich found out to his chagrin.

    the idea that "everyone will use impeachment every time from now on" is not a particularly compelling one because the parties will still need to consider the political costs for doing so. if the GOP wants to re-do 1998 with a new Dem President, then let them have the joy of it.
    GOP won the following election. The people said Billy and his party were bad.

    What cost ? this impeachment isn't going to cost the Dems. They're betting it will hurt the incumbent

    Impeachers are the good guys, remember : )

    So the formula is impeach - win next election

  15. #570
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    DE,

    GOP won the following election. The people said Billy and his party were bad.
    the Dems won the midterm elections even in the midst of impeachment. Gingrich resigned on Jan 3, 1999, demonstrating how his party viewed things.

    Bill Clinton's impeachment played almost zero role in the 2000 election.

    What cost ? this impeachment isn't going to cost the Dems. They're betting it will hurt the incumbent
    that was, and is, not Nancy Pelosi's calculus at all. her main concern is protecting House Dems, -not- electing the next President. again, if this was a political winner from the start, then the Dems would have started impeachment proceedings in January of 2019 prior to the Ukraine revelations.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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