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Thread: The Impeachment, Trial and Acquittal of Donald John Trump

  1. #526
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Is that what you've been doing this whole time? Just poking people? Taking the piss? Seriously?
    Answered here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    What I'm defending is the board against Hyperbolic Political Propaganda. What we have always done since we first introduced these.
    I've of course, as always, smacked down the obvious trolls, and tried to do both that and debate with as much wit as my limited abilities and time allow. The problem here my friend is that you have become a very, very angry man, who will brook no disagreement. This is difficult for me to deal with and requires considerable mental resource to try and get through to you without simply provoking more anger. Maybe I'm simply not up to the task, but I hope for our sake, I am.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

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  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Yeahhh, nah.
    Those are your wacko conspiracy theories, not mine. You've spent the last months claiming them, now both ambassadors have directly contradicted you. Under oath.

    It was you who said that Sondland was "influenced" by Biden and who denies all connection in this conspiracy to Trumpkin so I merely ask for proof that what you say is correct yet you offer none nor answer any of my more troublesome questions (as they may seem to you).


    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Is English your second language?
    Yes I was born in France and went to Convent School until I was six before English boarding school. Fools like you do not scare me as a result.


    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Boo hoo. Have a tissue.

    Really this is your best argument? Yet you think yourself in some way 'superior' to me by telling me "have a tissue"? Honestly I expected better from you Pari - and I do not mean that in a condescending way but just as a statement to a person I had respect for once. I have always been 'conservative' but you have left the edges of my credulity by apologising for a Class A traitor. Those who voluntarily defend self interested traitors lose their moral and intellectual integrity. TopHatter is a conservative too but has no problems condemning Trumpkins lies and abuses of power but you have neither the intellectual capacity to see it nor the moral responsibility to stand against it - even though the label says 'Republican'.

    Answer me why Marie Yovanovitch was fired for starters then you can proceed to why Lev Parnas was paying your hero's lawyer to dig up dirt on Biden and trying to coerce my President (who is admittedly an idiot but he is our idiot - for now) to do with Muscovite mob money?

    Let me know when you have answers to these riddles which I am sure must trouble your conscience - should you have one still. You remind me of some ardent Brexiteers - totally nonsensical "I don't know what the deal will be but it will be great". It's just BS and if I raise questions I get pathetic "ner ner ner, my Pater is bigger than yours, I am superior to you" self affirmation cr*p. Pari you should come down from your own tower of egotism and join the real world to work for good again.

  3. #528
    Dirty Kiwi Senior Contributor
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    I have always been 'conservative' but you have left the edges of my credulity by apologising for a Class A traitor. Those who voluntarily defend self interested traitors lose their moral and intellectual integrity.
    And there we go. Perhaps you could point out where Trump is on trial or has been convicted of treason. Not hyperbole, not dissemination, not he said she said. In which court, when and where.
    Lots of people claim to be conservative when convenient, but very few actually live up to it when asked to defend truth and evidence in an unpopular cause. So answer me the question above, otherwise every claim you make, especially being a conservative, is just pure trolling bullshit.
    In the realm of spirit, seek clarity; in the material world, seek utility.

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  4. #529
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    Perhaps you could point out where Trump is on trial or has been convicted of treason. Not hyperbole, not dissemination, not he said she said. In which court, when and where.
    Reason i have trouble with this word

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    To me it sounds much more serious than the Americans take it

    2020 just happened, happy new year guys

    Just searched the thread and not a single person here construes this impeachment as Trump having committed treason. However Trump has accused others of it.

    snapper thinks it means just that, so do you and me as well.

    Misconduct

    Not Treason
    Last edited by Double Edge; 31 Dec 19, at 19:51.

  5. #530
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    monash,

    Given the zero (or almost zero) chance that the Senate will ever vote for impeachment I must confess to having grave doubts about whether Trump's impeachment is worth the long term political damage likely to be suffered by America as a whole.

    Whatever else happens in the current partisan political climate its seems to me that the Impeachment process which was included in the US Constitution as a last option fail safe against corruption will be 'weaponized' from now on. In the first instance this will be done by right wing Republicans (BTW is there any other type now?) but once they do the Dems will probably follow.
    this is almost 2020, not 1998.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Just searched the thread and not a single person here construes this impeachment as Trump having committed treason. However Trump has accused others of it.

    snapper thinks it means just that, so do you and me as well.

    Misconduct

    Not Treason
    Impeachment is not prompted solely by treasonous act on the part of the President. Why do you think that it is?
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

  7. #532
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    Given the zero (or almost zero) chance that the Senate will ever vote for impeachment I must confess to having grave doubts about whether Trump's impeachment is worth the long term political damage likely to be suffered by America as a whole.

    Whatever else happens in the current partisan political climate its seems to me that the Impeachment process which was included in the US Constitution as a last option fail safe against corruption will be 'weaponized' from now on. In the first instance this will be done by right wing Republicans (BTW is there any other type now?) but once they do the Dems will probably follow.

    By 'weaponizing' impeachment I mean of course that in the event of a Democratic win at the next Presidential election calls will be made almost from inauguration day plus 1 to 'impeach' the President on whatever flimsy excuse can be found, partly by way of 'revenge' of course but also out of sheer political expediency. After a couple more terms 'Impeachment' could well become the de rigueur response of the losing side whenever they have the numbers in Congress. It's hard to think of a worse possible outcome in terms of effective and open governance for the United States since the mere threat of impeachment will suck the air out of any other work being done by either the elected houses or the Presidency.
    Impeachment as originally designed is not what we see today. Back then the House, the uncouth Representatives of the common folk for 2 years, were to decide on impeachment. The articles would then be sent over to the Senate, occupied by learned men selected by their state legislature, to act as jury. These men had no direct ties to the general populace so they did not have to worry about re-election meaning they could be open minded. Once the Senate became elected by the people the whole system went out the window as originally designed as the Senators now had to worry about their job. They also weren't so learned as we are seeing today. Consequently today we have a weaponized Senate in a manner of speaking. Impeachment needs to find a new jury or go to secret ballot.

    LOL, as some of our current Senators come from the ranks of the uncouth House of Representatives...
    Last edited by tbm3fan; 01 Jan 20, at 01:29.

  8. #533
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Impeachment is not prompted solely by treasonous act on the part of the President. Why do you think that it is?
    Because of the dictionary meaning of the word : )

    Implication is almost certain removal from office. You don't get to stay in office if you committed treason.

    snapper says 'Class A' traitor. Traitor has committed treason.

    Impeachment does not mean what i think it does for you

    Ironduke explained this a while back but it didn't sink in.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Jan 20, at 13:33.

  9. #534
    Senior Contributor Monash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    monash, this is almost 2020, not 1998.
    So what exactly is your point? Are you suggesting that US politics is no more polarized and divisive now in 2020 than it was back in the late 90's during the Clinton Administration? ID so please see the below from a survey conducted by the Pew Research Center in 2017.


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    The more intransigent the political positions of both parties become the less capable of compromise they become. The more partizan and extreme the less capable they are of adapting to changes in world geopolitical and economic trends.

    BTW this is not to say we are not suffering from the same problem (if to a lesser degree) here in Australia.
    Last edited by Monash; 01 Jan 20, at 11:32.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

  10. #535
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    So what exactly is your point? Are you suggesting that US politics is no more polarized and divisive now in 2020 than it was back in the late 90's during the Clinton Administration?
    Exactly


    The more intransigent the political positions of both parties become the less capable of compromise they become. The more partizan and extreme the less capable they are of adapting to changes in world geopolitical and economic trends.

    BTW this is not to say we are not suffering from the same problem (if to a lesser degree) here in Australia.
    yep, partisan positions are entrenched in western countries which is why you see close runs and no thumping wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    It presupposes a desire for fairness on both sides. We are increasingly finding in politics it does not work. Within western culture, the right can sometimes tends toward totalitarianism, but now the left intends totalitarianism.
    I read Pari's comment in the same context. Partisan intransigence leads to no compromise and the result is when one wins the other does its level best to knock them out on the most slender of opportunities.

    There is no fairness.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Jan 20, at 13:40.

  11. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parihaka View Post
    And there we go. Perhaps you could point out where Trump is on trial or has been convicted of treason. Not hyperbole, not dissemination, not he said she said. In which court, when and where.
    Lots of people claim to be conservative when convenient, but very few actually live up to it when asked to defend truth and evidence in an unpopular cause. So answer me the question above, otherwise every claim you make, especially being a conservative, is just pure trolling bullshit.
    Look I have asked you to explain the Parnas payments twice before but both times you have declined and resorted to proving your alleged 'superiority' by telling me "get a tissue"... I will give you one more chance - and this is ONLY related to the Guiliani 'investigation' in Ukraine so loosely related to the impeachment - not emoluments, not Trumps many other criminal activities just this small investigation by 'Trumps lawyer'. Let me try to make it as clear as possible for you:

    1. Guiliani was working pro bono (not charging anything) for Trumpkin.
    2. Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman (both originally Muscovites) were associates of Guiliani in this investigation.
    3. Parnas actually payed Guiliani $500,000 so it could be argued that Guiliani was working for Parnas - remember Trumpkin was not paying him anything.
    4. Parnas got $500,000 from Dmytro Firtash, a pal of the head of the Muscovite vory (mafia) Semion Mogilevich (who Felix Sater's Pater also worked for), is fighting extradition to the USA where he faces money laundering and fraud charges.
    5. Parnas was also wired $1m direct from Moscow to Wife's bank account.

    Ok he is the tricky bit... who, as it turns out, was paying for the Guliani 'investigation'? The Muscovite mob and the Muscovite Government (which is just two sides of the same coin). So why was 'Trump's lawyer' getting payed by Muscovites to investigate Biden on Trumps behalf?

    So riddle me this before try to show your imagined 'superiority' by telling me 'get a tissue' and then accusing me of 'trolling b*llsh*t." But that is all you would be apologists can do.... since the facts are undeniable you have to resort to calling people names. Shame.

  12. #537
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Look I have asked you to explain the Parnas payments twice before but both times you have declined and resorted to proving your alleged 'superiority' by telling me "get a tissue"... I will give you one more chance - and this is ONLY related to the Guiliani 'investigation' in Ukraine so loosely related to the impeachment - not emoluments, not Trumps many other criminal activities just this small investigation by 'Trumps lawyer'. Let me try to make it as clear as possible for you:

    1. Guiliani was working pro bono (not charging anything) for Trumpkin.
    2. Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman (both originally Muscovites) were associates of Guiliani in this investigation.
    3. Parnas actually payed Guiliani $500,000 so it could be argued that Guiliani was working for Parnas - remember Trumpkin was not paying him anything.
    4. Parnas got $500,000 from Dmytro Firtash, a pal of the head of the Muscovite vory (mafia) Semion Mogilevich (who Felix Sater's Pater also worked for), is fighting extradition to the USA where he faces money laundering and fraud charges.
    5. Parnas was also wired $1m direct from Moscow to Wife's bank account.

    Ok he is the tricky bit... who, as it turns out, was paying for the Guliani 'investigation'? The Muscovite mob and the Muscovite Government (which is just two sides of the same coin). So why was 'Trump's lawyer' getting payed by Muscovites to investigate Biden on Trumps behalf?

    So riddle me this before try to show your imagined 'superiority' by telling me 'get a tissue' and then accusing me of 'trolling b*llsh*t." But that is all you would be apologists can do.... since the facts are undeniable you have to resort to calling people names. Shame.
    Bolded bit i don't get. Why would guliani investigate Biden ? in the US ?

    I thought it was the Ukranies to investigate Biden's son in Ukraine.

    You may want to read this as well ; )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 01 Jan 20, at 16:37.

  13. #538
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    Ty for 'paid' vs 'payed' correction; I shall try to get it right in future. Guiliani was getting paid by Muscovites for supposed 'representing his client Trumpkin'. Trouble was Guiliani, Parnas and Fruman were NOT conducting their 'invesigation' in the US, but were in Ukraine. Parnas, who now faces money laundering charges in the US, has admitted these payments he got from Firtash and Moscow - and that he paid Guiliani $500,000. So in reality Moscow and the Muscovite mob were paying to do this sort of sham retrospective 'investigation' using his cover as 'Trump's lawyer' to do so, while Parnas and Fruman were trying to get the board of Naftogaz (the Ukrainian state owned gas company) fired. So why is Muscovy picking up the bill for an 'investigation' into a political adversary of Trumps?

    Shokin, the Procurator that was fired, who Guiliani now alleges was some kind anti corruption crusader, was not investigating anyone or anything; not even the Maidan murders. That was why everyone wanted him gone - not least the IMF, the Ukrainian Parliament, Ukrainian civil society, Kerry, Obama, the UK, France, the EU - everyone. Yet Guiliani now says he was investigating Busrisma - without a jot of evidence. The next Procurator General (Yuriy Lutsenko) was famous because he did not even have a law degree so the Rada had to pass a special rule to allow him to become Procurator General. He did actually start an investigation into Konstantin Klimimnik (aka Manafort's pal "Kostya from the GRU") but Kostya fled - you can guess where. He also spent alot of time arguing about jurisdiction with NABU (National Anticorruption Bureau of Ukraine) which he ultimately lost. The latest incumbent is Ruslan Riaboshapka, who formerly headed a subsection of NABU called the National Agency for the Prevention of Corruption (NAPC). He is not doing his job either but I will go into recent controversies in the Ukraine thread when later when my small people are not creating havoc.

  14. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Because of the dictionary meaning of the word : )
    Ok, that's great and all, but we're talking about the President of the United States and the United States Constitution. So instead of using a dictionary, how about we check the Constitution.

    Article II, Section 4 provides:

    The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

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    Giuliani Says He’s Prepared to ‘Do Demonstrations’ at Trump’s Impeachment Trial

    Rudy Giuliani is prepared to do more than just testify at President Trump’s upcoming impeachment trial. The former New York City mayor made clear in comments to reporters on Tuesday night that he’s ready to pull out all the stops to defend his client—and that apparently includes giving “lectures” and doing “demonstrations.” Asked if he would testify at the trial, Giuliani appeared unable to settle on a single, coherent answer.

    “I would testify, I would, um, do demonstrations. I’d give lectures, I’d give summations. Or, I’d do what I do best, I’d try the case. I’d love to try the case. Well I don’t know if anybody would have the courage to give me the case, but, uh, if you give me the case, I will prosecute it as a racketeering case, which I kind of invented anyway,” Giuliani said at a New Year’s Eve gala at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort.

    He also dodged a question about whether he had any plans for another trip to Ukraine, an activity that has been at the center of the impeachment proceedings against Trump, which center on allegations he abused his power to pressure Ukraine to do him political favors. Giuliani, accused of hijacking American foreign policy to run a dirt-digging mission in Ukraine that would boost Trump domestically, returned from his latest trip earlier this month claiming to have boatloads of evidence to exonerate Trump and incriminate Trump's political foes, including former vice president Joe Biden and many Democrats.

    So far, however, despite Trump claiming Giuliani would be filing a report with the Justice Department on his Ukraine findings and Giuliani saying he planned to brief the Senate on the matter, his findings have apparently not been embraced as the smoking gun against Democrats that he believed they would be. As The Daily Beast reported earlier this week, some Republican senators have actively avoided Giuliani ahead of the impeachment trial over concerns that his Ukraine findings may be mingled with Russian conspiracy theories. Even Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), who first called on Giuliani to share his findings, has urged him to “make sure it’s not Russian propaganda.”
    ______________

    Ah yes, Trump hires only the best people lol And the GOP is fighting tooth and nail to keep them off the witness stand.

    Can't imagine why....
    TwentyFiveFortyFive

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