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Thread: The Impeachment, Trial and Acquittal of Donald John Trump

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    You're not homeless are you...?
    ;-)
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Ok so look at his 'university', his 'trust fund', his payoffs to Ladies of dubious repute before he was elected. He was always a criminal.
    It is an implicit bias that you punish him for his previous crimes when he was not the President by inventing new crime during his tenure as the President.

    Calling him criminal without being established by law is an endless convoluted debate. It also shows badly on both your electoral process that allowed him to run and US Judicial system or law enforcement agencies. I agree on this notion that Law can not operate on Suo-Moto action especially against private people and criminals do get caught on one small crime that can further unearth more serious crimes. In this case, I neither see a formal conviction that FEC found when he filed his nomination to run for the presidency nor during this Impeachment process.

    You want to broaden the investigation I am all for it, but Democrats opted only for Quid Pro Quo, then changed the theme to extortion, then bribery and now obstruction of Congress for corrupt intent. And it is just one case.

    Totally agree; Mueller report said that if he were not President prosecution would be the remedy but since he is impeachment was the sole remedy.
    Democrats would have handled it badly as well.


    Just curious what you think is Ukraine's "key city"? Muscovy is far more corrupt than Ukraine.
    I meant annexation of Crimea by Putin.


    Look you swear an oath in Burgerland; elsewhere it is different. You have a choice whether to do your duty or not. I want my children to have a better life - and my Grandchildren too should God grant them. That means fighting corruption and any aggressor and upholding the dignity of myself and the country no matter what any politician lies about - I must carry on trying to make things better.
    For democrats, Impeachment is a tool to influence an electoral outcome and few (one) of them have said it publically. From this electoral (pre) exercise, you can only get winners and losers, not attributes like honesty, dignity and a better life. Russian collusion may have been more sound choice but its timing was not perfect, it came out quite early for democrats. I do not want to poison the pond by saying both sides are bad but by observing this bitter fight fed on confirmation bias on both sides it is very hard to find the balance.

    In my profession, we say if there is a decision making dilemma follow what the law says. In Trump's case, it says nothing, period.
    Last edited by ambidex; 19 Dec 19, at 16:21.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Mitt Romney and John McCain was also accused of such, by the media at certain times from your alacarte menu. Short memory eh’?

    As I recall both Bush’s were accused of war crimes and promoting dirty water and air! Not to mention racism and wanting to kill grand-mom!
    Deflect Deflect Deflect. Second verse same as the first.

    That "ala carte menu" as you so quaintly put it, was for you, not the media.

    But because it's all verifiably true of Trump, and thus indefensible, you have to deflect onto Romney, McCain, Bush etc.

    Do you feel the slightest shame or discomfort in supporting a man like Donald Trump, knowing all those things (and far more) are true?

    Or does his 'anti-lefty' persona wash all of that away for your conscience?

    If the answer is 'no, I'm perfectly fine with all of it', then at least have the stones to come right out and say it.

    Unless of course you'd like to hide behind still more deflections.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    Is he being impeached on all these charges?

    Is Americal legal Jurisprudence being evoked on all these charges in this impeachment process?
    Why are you assuming that he is? Did I say that he was being impeached on those charges? Did I mention American legal Jurisprudence?

    Or was I asking a single specific person for his opinion on Donald Trump?
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Why are you assuming that he is? Did I say that he was being impeached on those charges? Did I mention American legal Jurisprudence?

    Or was I asking a single specific person for his opinion on Donald Trump?
    The thread is about Trump impeachment. Anything said here should be either supporting the Impeachment or not.

    Or creating a sundry list of vague accusation means the actual case has fallen flat?

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    The thread is about Trump impeachment. Anything said here should be either supporting the Impeachment or not
    I'm sorry, I didn't realize you made the rules for how a thread topic is to be discussed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    Or creating a sundry list of vague accusation means the actual case has fallen flat?
    Whatever you need for your version of reality to function, go for it!
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  8. #383
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Total approve vs disapprove looks even at 49

    https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._index_history

    If there were some credibility to these charges i'd expect the total approve to have dipped under 40

    Anway, this one's for Billy. Took 'em 20 years but they nailed one, finally : D

  9. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    It is an implicit bias that you punish him for his previous crimes when he was not the President by inventing new crime during his tenure as the President.
    He has not been impeached for his former crimes but for his ongoing ones. But you ask how I know he is criminal - well he has a history.


    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    You want to broaden the investigation I am all for it, but Democrats opted only for Quid Pro Quo, then changed the theme to extortion, then bribery and now obstruction of Congress for corrupt intent. And it is just one case.
    The quid pro quo is the same thing as the extortion but the extortion is used to refer to the weaker side - Ukraine in this case.


    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    Democrats would have handled it badly as well.

    First if Mueller could have prosecuted it would not be the Democrats doing the prosecution but the justice system. Second how would you have handled the impeachment better?


    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    I meant annexation of Crimea by Putin.
    Crimea is not a city nor is it "key" to Ukraine. It requires yearly subsidies.


    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    For democrats, Impeachment is a tool to influence an electoral outcome and few (one) of them have said it publically. From this electoral (pre) exercise, you can only get winners and losers, not attributes like honesty, dignity and a better life. Russian collusion may have been more sound choice but its timing was not perfect, it came out quite early for democrats. I do not want to poison the pond by saying both sides are bad but by observing this bitter fight fed on confirmation bias on both sides it is very hard to find the balance.
    You CANNOT prosecute a President in office according to some DoJ theory; given that he is clearly colluding with Moscow, a liar and crook, get him on whatever for the sake of security.

    Quote Originally Posted by ambidex View Post
    In my profession, we say if there is a decision making dilemma follow what the law says. In Trump's case, it says nothing, period.
    If asked someone in Muscovy to look into dirt on Zelensky (who I am not a great fan of) I would be guilty of treason. US and Ukraine are not at war but the same principle stands - we all heard him asking Muscovy to interfere in the 2016 election and guess what? They did. Now he says it was Ukraine and what have we got to do? Just announce an investigation into political opponent. Not even do a real investigation! TV Presidents need TV scenes - the man is a ignoramus criminal and belongs in prison.

  10. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Total approve vs disapprove looks even at 49

    https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._index_history

    If there were some credibility to these charges i'd expect the total approve to have dipped under 40
    Uh, no. Nixon's approval rating was very very strong, right up until it wasn't. Even after he resigned, he still had a 25% approval rating.

    Trump is clearly different, but don't think for one second that these polls are an indication of validity to the charges. Especially not when Trump brags that he could shoot somebody in broad daylight and not lose voters.

    Bearing that in mind, what's a little corruption and obstruction of justice compared to cold-blooded murder?

    Our very own surfgun is a microcosm of Trump supporters: That "ala carte" list of Trump traits I posted certainly didn't faze him in the slightest.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  11. #386
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    So, Nancy sits on her impeachment of nothing (and refused to take additional questions on the matter) and World spins after all the warnings that action was needed straight away.
    The dog finally caught the car, but does not know what to do with it.
    Last edited by surfgun; 20 Dec 19, at 00:12.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    So, Nancy sits on her impeachment of nothing (and refused to take additional questions on the matter) and World spins after all the warnings that action was needed straight away.
    The dog finally caught the car, but does not know what to do with it.
    The Senate Majority Leader has already publicly stated, and I quote:

    "We have no choice but to take it up, but we'll be working through this process, hopefully in a fairly short period of time, in total coordination with White House counsel's office and the people who are representing the President in the well of the Senate."

    and

    "I'm not impartial about this at all. I'm not an impartial juror"

    Meanwhile, he's supposed to swear a solemn oath, with the rest of the Senate that vows:

    "I solemnly swear [or affirm] that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald John Trump, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: So help me God."

    So, d'ya think that juuuuust maybe, that the "dog", as you so sneeringly put it (no wonder you don't give a shit about Trump's raging misogyny), otherwise known as Ms. Pelosi, has some concerns about the rules of the trial? Maybe? Kinda sorta? Possibly?

    Also, I see you've switched from "Deflect" to "Dodge Completely". Nicely done, straight out of the Trump follower's handbook. Next you should go tell Congresswoman Debbie Dingell that her late husband is in Hell.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  13. #388
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Uh, no. Nixon's approval rating was very very strong, right up until it wasn't. Even after he resigned, he still had a 25% approval rating.
    Will Trump resign ? nobody is saying he will.

    So the question is what happens next ? here is a comment i saw

    Nothing happens next, he has the highest approval rating within the Republican Party which still holds the majority of the senate floor.

    The impeachment will be overruled.

    Just a bunch of democrats drama tendencies which will once more lose the elections to Trump.



    Trump is clearly different, but don't think for one second that these polls are an indication of validity to the charges. Especially not when Trump brags that he could shoot somebody in broad daylight and not lose voters.

    Bearing that in mind, what's a little corruption and obstruction of justice compared to cold-blooded murder?
    This is a popular vote. If the man commits murder and enough people don't think he did then he wins. Credibility i said. People have to believe it otherwise it does not register.

    Whatever they threw at Modi made him stronger. Does the same apply to Trump ? He seems to think so. Let's see.

    Right now, he can run again. Whether the people will elect him. What is the best the democrats have ?

    Our very own surfgun is a microcosm of Trump supporters: That "ala carte" list of Trump traits I posted certainly didn't faze him in the slightest.
    I don't get to worry about his supporters, the man makes policy and gets to declare war.

    What his party thinks, wants to do and whether they can stick around to do it is all that matters.

    Something strange i find with the Americans here. Why is it always the opposition guys in the majority.

    Same thing happened when Obama was around which made figuring out what he was doing harder.

    Funny thing is where did they go when Trump showed up ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Dec 19, at 01:08.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Will Trump resign ? nobody is saying he will.

    So the question is what happens next ? here is a comment i saw

    Nothing happens next, he has the highest approval rating within the Republican Party which still holds the majority of the senate floor.

    The impeachment will be overruled.

    Just a bunch of democrats drama tendencies which will once more lose the elections to Trump.
    Barring some surprise in the eleventh hour, as what happened with Nixon, then he will almost certainly be acquitted.

    I've maintained from the beginning that Trump's survival will depend on Trump's approval rating.

    On the other hand, if a handful of Republican Senators demand witness testimony, it's possible that we'll see the very people that Trump has fought tooth and nail to keep off the stand. Who knows what they'll say or reveal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    This is a popular vote. If the man commits murder and enough people don't think he did then he wins.

    Whatever they threw at Modi made him stronger. Does the same apply to Trump ? He seems to think so. Let's see.

    Right now, he can run again. Whether the people will elect him. What is the best the democrats have ?
    If a man commits murder, he is arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to prison. Trump has tried to assert that this is not true of the President. Funny enough, the same will apply to a Democrat President as well, but Republicans are too fucking stupid to realize it.

    Yes, this will absolutely embolden Trump. He will conflate acquittal with exoneration and proceed to wreak even further havoc with the institutions and laws of this country.

    As I've said time and time again, I don't give a shit what the Democrats have done.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Barring some surprise in the eleventh hour, as what happened with Nixon, then he will almost certainly be acquitted.

    I've maintained from the beginning that Trump's survival will depend on Trump's approval rating.

    On the other hand, if a handful of Republican Senators demand witness testimony, it's possible that we'll see the very people that Trump has fought tooth and nail to keep off the stand. Who knows what they'll say or reveal.
    So this impeachment business began oh cpl months ago. Check out his total approve in that list. Average has stayed the same. This means not many people believe he is guilty of what the opposition charges.

    Your next point is an unknown. What will be the reaction to that handful who sank the parties chances of winning the next election by taking out their own guy?

    They will be called patriots and become democrat senators. A more cynical take will be they were bought.


    If a man commits murder, he is arrested, tried, convicted and sentenced to prison. Trump has tried to assert that this is not true of the President. Funny enough, the same will apply to a Democrat President as well, but Republicans are too fucking stupid to realize it.

    Yes, this will absolutely embolden Trump. He will conflate acquittal with exoneration and proceed to wreak even further havoc with the institutions and laws of this country.

    As I've said time and time again, I don't give a shit what the Democrats have done.
    Your laws are quite tight. You've had two presidents impeached now. Somehow i don't think President is above the law which is what you are implying here.

    If he says so then he believes the charges brought against him lack merit. Every now & then some one will push that like Mueller did but even he could not find anything to charge him with.

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