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Thread: The Impeachment and Trial of Donald John Trump

  1. #241
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    When you read about Rudy this, and Rudy that, does anyone else think of the subway monster in Men In Black?
    All teeth, and no brains?
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    Army Officer Says He Raised Flags About Trump’s Ukraine Call

    (Bloomberg) -- A U.S. Army officer who works for the White House National Security Council said he listened in on the telephone call between President Donald Trump and Ukraine’s president and was so disturbed by the content that he reported his concerns to the NSC’s legal counsel.

    Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman said in a statement prepared for the House impeachment inquiry that the July call was just one of the instances he witnessed in which Trump administration officials conditioned aid to Ukraine on that country agreeing to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden. In one of the prior instances he also contacted the NSC lawyer.

    Vindman’s statement corroborates the complaint made by a whistle-blower in the intelligence community, who Trump has repeatedly sought to discredit and dismiss. Vindman’s testimony is scheduled to be delivered Tuesday to the three House committees leading an impeachment inquiry of Trump and provides a key piece of evidence from someone with first-hand knowledge of the events being investigated.

    “I was concerned by the call. I did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen, and I was worried about the implications for the U.S. government’s support of Ukraine,” Vindman said in the statement. “I realized that if Ukraine pursued an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma, it would likely be interpreted as a partisan play which would undoubtedly result in Ukraine losing the bipartisan support it has thus far maintained.”

    That, he added, “would all undermine U.S. national security.”

    Biden’s son Hunter sat on the board of Burisma Group, one of the country’s biggest private gas companies. As vice president, Biden pursued an anti-corruption policy in Ukraine in 2016 that included a call for the resignation of the country’s top prosecutor who had previously investigated Burisma.

    Vindman said the first time he contacted an NSC lawyer was after Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, told Ukrainian officials at a meeting that their country had to pledge “specific investigations” in order to secure a meeting between Zelenskiy and Trump.

    Vindman said he told Sondland that “his statements were inappropriate.”

    He said he was in the White House Situation Room when the Trump-Zelenskiy call took place.

    He said he never had direct contact or communication with the president. When Vindman joined the National Security Council in 2018, he says, he reported to Fiona Hill, another NSC official who in turn reported to John Bolton, the national security adviser.

    Hill has already testified to the three impeachment committees and its investigators have indicated they want to request Bolton, who departed the White House in September, to testify at some point.

    In his statement, Vindman says he is not the whistle-blower who brought this issue to the intelligence community’s inspector general, trigger the current focus on Trump’s actions regarding Ukraine.

    “I do not know who the whistle-blower is and I would not feel comfortable to speculate as to the identity of the whistle-blower,” he states in his prepared remarks.

    Vindman’s been in the Army for more than 20 years and is an Iraq combat veteran. Since 2008, he’s been specializing in Eurasia, with tours at U.S. embassies in Kyiv and Moscow.

    “I have dedicated my entire professional life to the United States of America,” he said in his statement. “I am a patriot, and it is my sacred duty and honor to advance and defend OUR country, irrespective of party or politics.”


    Vindman’s testimony is set for Tuesday, on the heels of a former deputy White House national security adviser defying a congressional subpoena on Monday. Charles Kupperman failed to show up for a scheduled deposition Monday after the White House instructed him not to do so. He has filed legal action in federal court in Washington for guidance on whether he was legally required to do so. A preliminary hearing has been set for Friday.

    Yet as the Vindman statement underscores, even as the administration attempts to prevent officials and former officials from taking part in the impeachment inquiry, other witnesses continue to testify.

    Intelligence Committee Adam Schiff of California said Monday the three committees would “move forward” in the investigation and would not let the administration’s blocking of witnesses impede progress.
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    This guy sounds like just another Deep State liberal socialist /s
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Pelosi has been smart about this. Impeachment is a divisive issue & has the potential to cause problems for Dems in 'purple' seats. By taking testimony & letting a few tidbits from credible sources out before taking a vote she has ameliorated that problem as best she can. She has also let Trump set up a bogus defence of his obstruction that can be knocked down easily. She plays this game pretty well.
    She is the daughter of a hard nosed old line party mayor of Baltimore. He taught his daughter well. She is amazingly capable and a fearless opponent.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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    I wonder how LTC Vindman will do on the O-6 Promotion Board?
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I wonder how LTC Vindman will do on the O-6 Promotion Board?
    That particular article that I posted doesn't mention that LTC Vindman is combat-wounded veteran and an immigrant from the former Soviet Union, specifically Ukraine:

    "The privilege of serving my country is not only rooted in my military service, but also in my personal history. I sit here, as a Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army, an immigrant. My family fled the Soviet Union when I was three and a half years old. Upon arriving in New York City in 1979, my father worked multiple jobs to support us, all the while learning English at night. He stressed to us the importance of fully integrating into our adopted country. For many years, life was quite difficult. In spite of our challenging beginnings, my family worked to build its own American dream. I have a deep appreciation for American values and ideals and the power of freedom. I am a patriot, and it is my sacred duty and honor to advance and defend OUR country, irrespective of party or politics."


    Naturally Fox News immediately brands him as a spy for Ukraine.

    These people aren't worthy to shine his shoes. Fuck every last one of them.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    it's important to note that LTC Vindman went through the appropriate route to air his concerns privately. he is testifying only because he was subpoenaed.

    he did everything right.

    and now conservative media is already raring to go with racist, xenophobic attacks questioning his loyalty to the United States. it makes me sick to my stomach.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    and now conservative media is already raring to go with racist, xenophobic attacks questioning his loyalty to the United States. it makes me sick to my stomach.
    Of course! LTC Vindman had the temerity to question their orange god emperor who can do no wrong.

    I'm going to keep saying it: Jim Jones was a pathetic amateur.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    What real choice do they have? For good or bad (read bad) the conservative right in American have hitched their wagon ideologically, and emotionally to Trumps success. Therefore anyone who attacks his credibility for any reason has to be attacked and their reputation undermined. Doesn't matter who they are or what service they have provided to the US in the past.

    If they are not white it will be a 'race' thing. Female? enough said. Foreign born or foreign national? its treason. Part of the public service? - its a conspiracy. In private enterprise - money, the list goes on. No one can the allowed to attack the credibility of America's savior.

    At times I almost wish Nixon was back in the saddle, which says a lot about how despairing I am of politics in the US at the moment.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post
    I wonder how LTC Vindman will do on the O-6 Promotion Board?
    Hopefully, the US Armed forces have enough integrity and independence to make a fair and independent assessment of the gentleman's performance. If things are that far gone they cant, then all I can say is that the US and all its allies are in a world of hurt.
    If you are emotionally invested in 'believing' something is true you have lost the ability to tell if it is true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    That particular article that I posted doesn't mention that LTC Vindman is combat-wounded veteran and an immigrant from the former Soviet Union, specifically Ukraine:

    "The privilege of serving my country is not only rooted in my military service, but also in my personal history. I sit here, as a Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army, an immigrant. My family fled the Soviet Union when I was three and a half years old. Upon arriving in New York City in 1979, my father worked multiple jobs to support us, all the while learning English at night. He stressed to us the importance of fully integrating into our adopted country. For many years, life was quite difficult. In spite of our challenging beginnings, my family worked to build its own American dream. I have a deep appreciation for American values and ideals and the power of freedom. I am a patriot, and it is my sacred duty and honor to advance and defend OUR country, irrespective of party or politics."


    Naturally Fox News immediately brands him as a spy for Ukraine.

    These people aren't worthy to shine his shoes. Fuck every last one of them.
    Oh and his twin brother is also an Army LTC who is a JAG....who he sought for legal advice as a serving officer.

    Oh, and he was a former Infantry officer so I like him already.

    A friend who had the same position for the Navy who served in Moscow in the same duty position Vindman served in Kyiv is immensely impressed with his credentials.

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    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    Hopefully, the US Armed forces have enough integrity and independence to make a fair and independent assessment of the gentleman's performance. If things are that far gone they cant, then all I can say is that the US and all its allies are in a world of hurt.
    It was said tongue in cheek.

    If it is anything I can judge in what I have seen in the last 48 hours from serving officers is the officer corps of the Army is pissed at the way he was treated.

    The man was given a lawful order...a Congressional subpeona...and had to respond IAW his oath...which he did.

    It is not a Nuremburg Defence either (I was just following orders). He was responding to the bedrock foundation of ouf democracy...the Constitution clearly establishes civilian control of the military and the Congress as a coequal member of the government. When Congress calls the US Military is duty bound to respond and respond truthfully regardless of consequences.

    Some of those who have sworn similar oaths (GOP lawmakers) and many chicken hawks who never have should drop to their collective knees and thank their chosen God that we have people of such integrity serving today.
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monash View Post
    What real choice do they have? For good or bad (read bad) the conservative right in American have hitched their wagon ideologically, and emotionally to Trumps success. Therefore anyone who attacks his credibility for any reason has to be attacked and their reputation undermined. Doesn't matter who they are or what service they have provided to the US in the past.

    If they are not white it will be a 'race' thing. Female? enough said. Foreign born or foreign national? its treason. Part of the public service? - its a conspiracy. In private enterprise - money, the list goes on. No one can the allowed to attack the credibility of America's savior.
    Well said. Classic conspiracy theorist mentality. Hardly a surprise of course, given the people involved from top to bottom.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Albany Rifles View Post

    If it is anything I can judge in what I have seen in the last 48 hours from serving officers is the officer corps of the Army is pissed at the way he was treated.
    That's the biggest thing about Trump that baffles the living hell out of me: How the military and civilian supporters of the military (usually those on the Right) can still support this man.

    Donald Trump has repeatedly, brazenly, unapologetically shit all over the most sacred totems of the military. And come away completely unscathed.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  14. #254
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    Army Colonel Tried To Fix Altered White House Transcript

    WASHINGTON — Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council, told House impeachment investigators Tuesday that the White House transcript of a July call between President Donald Trump and Ukraine’s president omitted crucial words and phrases, and that his attempts to include them failed, according to three people familiar with the testimony.

    The omissions, Vindman said, included Trump’s assertion that there were recordings of former Vice President Joe Biden discussing Ukraine corruption, and an explicit mention by Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, of Burisma Holdings, the energy company whose board employed Biden’s son Hunter.

    Vindman, who appeared on Capitol Hill wearing his dark blue Army dress uniform and military medals, told House impeachment investigators that he tried to change the reconstructed transcript made by the White House staff to reflect the omissions. But while some of his edits appeared to have been successful, he said, those two corrections were not made.

    Vindman did not testify to a motive behind the editing process. But his testimony is likely to drive investigators to ask further questions about how officials handled the call, including changes to the transcript and the decision to put it into the White House’s most classified computer system — and whether those moves were meant to conceal the conversation’s most controversial aspects.

    The phrases do not fundamentally change lawmakers’ understanding of the call, which was first reported by the CIA whistleblower whose complaint set off the impeachment inquiry. There are plenty of other examples of Trump referring to Ukraine-related conspiracy theories and asking for investigations of the Biden family. But Vindman’s account offered a hint to solving a mystery surrounding the conversation: what Trump’s aides left out of the transcript in places where ellipses indicated dropped words.

    In hours of questioning Tuesday by Democrats and Republicans, Vindman recounted his alarm at the July 25 call, saying he “did not think it was proper” for Trump to have asked Zelenskiy to investigate a political rival, and how White House officials struggled to deal with the fallout from a conversation he and others considered problematic.

    His testimony about the reconstructed transcript, the aftermath of the call and a shadow foreign policy being run outside the National Security Council came as Democrats unveiled plans for a more public phase of the impeachment process. They plan to vote Thursday to direct the Intelligence Committee to conduct public hearings and produce a report for the Judiciary Committee to guide its consideration of impeachment articles. The measure will also provide a mechanism for Republicans to request subpoenas for witnesses and give Trump’s lawyers a substantive role in the Judiciary Committee’s proceedings to mount a defense.

    Some lawmakers indicated Vindman would make a good candidate to appear again at a public hearing next month.

    It is not clear why some of Vindman’s changes were not made, but the decision by a White House lawyer to quickly lock down the reconstructed transcript subverted the normal process of handling such documents, according to people familiar with the matter.

    The note takers and voice recognition software used during the July 25 call had missed Zelenskiy saying the word “Burisma,” according to people briefed on the matter, but the reconstructed transcript does refer to “the company” and suggests that the Ukrainian president is aware that it is of great interest to Trump.

    Ukraine’s prosecutor general, Zelenskiy said, according to the document, “will look into the situation, specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue.”

    The rough transcript also contains ellipses at three points where Trump is speaking. Vindman told investigators that at the point of the transcript where the third set of ellipses appears, Trump said there were tapes of Biden.

    Trump’s mention of tapes is an apparent reference to Biden’s comments at a January 2018 event about his effort to get Ukraine to force out its prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin. Supporters of Biden have said Shokin was widely criticized for his lax anti-corruption efforts. Republicans charge, without evidence, that Biden was trying to stop an investigation into his son.

    Vindman told House investigators Tuesday that he twice registered internal objections about how Trump and his inner circle were pressuring Ukraine to undertake inquiries beneficial to the president, including of Biden. After the July 25 call, the colonel reported what happened to a superior, explaining that “I did not think it was proper to demand that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen, and I was worried about the implications for the U.S. government’s support of Ukraine,” according to his opening remarks. He added, “This would all undermine U.S. national security.”

    He also described confronting Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, after the envoy pressed Ukrainian officials to help the Trump administration by investigating the Biden family. The colonel said he acted out of a “sense of duty” and emphasized his military service in his remarks. “I am a patriot,” he said, “and it is my sacred duty and honor to advance and defend our country irrespective of party or politics.”

    As he spoke, House leaders were preparing for what was expected to be significant new private testimony from current and former White House officials in the coming days. On Wednesday, they will hear from two Ukraine experts who advised Kurt Volker, the former U.S. special envoy to the country. On Thursday, Timothy Morrison, the National Security Council’s Russia and Europe director, is scheduled to testify. And Friday, investigators have called Robert Blair, a top national security adviser to Mick Mulvaney, the acting White House chief of staff.

    There is no recording of the July 25 call by the U.S. side. The White House uses note takers listening in on the call as well as voice recognition software to create a rough transcript that is a close approximation of the call. But names and technical terms are frequently missed by the software, according to people familiar with the matter.

    After the call, Vindman was given a hard copy of the rough transcript to make updates and corrections, according to a person familiar with the matter. Vindman went through the transcript, made changes and gave his written edits to his boss, Morrison, according to the person.

    But after the call, Vindman went with his brother, a lawyer on the National Security Council staff, to see John Eisenberg, the council’s legal adviser, to raise his concerns about the conversation.

    Vindman declined to detail to investigators his discussions with Eisenberg, citing attorney-client privilege, according to two of the people familiar with the testimony.

    One explanation for why Vindman’s changes were not made could be that the transcript had been quickly placed into a highly secure computer system, the NSC Intelligence Collaboration Environment, or NICE system, making it more difficult to alter.

    Eisenberg ordered the transcript moved to ensure people who were not assigned to handle Ukraine policy could not read the transcript, a decision he hoped would prevent gossip and leaks about the call.

    Putting the transcript in the secure server would have made it more difficult to make further edits to the document and in the case of the July call effectively stopped additional changes.

    Eisenberg made the decision without consulting with his supervisor, Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel. A White House review of the handling of the call is examining if Eisenberg acted properly in securing the notes.

    Administration officials have said a number of calls between Trump and foreign leaders were put in the most secure server. But tightened security had been put in place for those calls ahead of time. The Ukraine call was put in the secure server only after the fact.

    In the whistleblower complaint that was made public, the CIA officer wrote that placing the rough transcript in the server was part of an effort to lock it down and restrict access and a sign that “White House officials understood the gravity of what had transpired in the call.”
    _________________

    Not that anybody with a working brain ever suspected anything different of course.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  15. #255
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    Donald Trump has repeatedly, brazenly, unapologetically shit all over the most sacred totems of the military.
    and not just the military, the entire national-security apparatus, diplomats, FBI...you name it, he's shat on it.

    to add on re: LTC Vindman; from my own particular niche in the defense field, he used to work in Joint Staff developing our plans against Russia. he's well-known (and personally known) in my office.

    i'm glad to see there's some semblance of pushback in conservative-world regarding the incredibly bigoted attack by Ingraham/Duffy/Yoo (the last two coming up with truly pathetic excuses for their behavior-- particularly disgusting coming from Yoo, seeing as how he himself is an immigrant), but it's damned revealing that this would be the angle that conservatives would go for literally an hour after the initial NYT report on Vindman's testimony came out.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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