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  • Luck is always there but we need two to tango here long enough without one falling over and bringing the other one down. To tango long enough without arguments ending the tango. Luck only gets you so far.

    About those close calls, the Brits have being having them since the beginning of the 18th c.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jul 19,, 20:04.

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    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
      Quite fascinated by that flyboard, the inventor demonstrated it back in 2012.
      The 2012 flyboards used a fixed hose to pump up water from a turbine (waterjet) on the surface, which would be expelled by the flyboard for upwards propulsion. The current version (Flyboard Air) was first demonstrated in 2016.

      Flyboard Air has permission to fly in France provided it takes off and lands at an airfield (it has a flight radius of 4 km), and is also allowed to fly in the US as an ultra-light aircraft (they built a modified version in 2017 to comply with regulations for that).

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
        Invasions of Canada (1775 and 1812), American Civil War (easy one, either Conferate Americans or Union Americans were going to lose), Vietnam War.
        I'll take it since you picked out one sentence that you see exceptions to, you more or less agree with everything else I stated in that post.

        Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
        The way I see it, the French parades are posturing and a way of compensating for past defeats. France has lost two major wars in the past 150 years, with its capital occupied and independence lost. In the wake of their last defeat, they lost a number of colonial wars and lost most of their Empire. WWI was a close call and had a devastating impact on their national morale.

        The French feel the need to prove something. Despite not having a perfect track record when it comes to quagmire wars marked by insurgency, American military capabilities are unparalleled and we've never lost a conventional war.

        Not a perfect analogy, but French military parades are kind of like the middle-aged guy who doesn't have anything going for him, who goes out and buys a sports car to impress people. Trump obviously feels the need to prove something every hour of every day. His desires for a military parade reflect his owns insecurities and a disturbed pathology. France's military parades have their origin in an insecure pathology that exists on a national level.

        America doesn't have anything to prove.
        "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

        Comment


        • It's not just a French thing but a European thing. Poland, Italy, Russia, Turkey have them. Even East Germany had them before unification. As such, can't really compare to the middle age syndrome.
          Chimo

          Comment


          • Much of the world has military parades.

            DC is a crappy place for a parade or public going on.
            To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              Invasions of Canada (1775 and 1812), American Civil War (easy one, either Conferate Americans or Union Americans were going to lose), Vietnam War.
              Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
              It's not just a French thing but a European thing. Poland, Italy, Russia, Turkey have them. Even East Germany had them before unification. As such, can't really compare to the middle age syndrome.
              In the last ~200 years, France has had her capital taken and the country occupied three times. 1815, 1871, and 1940. France lost most of her colonial empire after the Second World War in a humiliating succession of military and political defeats. This is a beside, but France only ever had the Second Empire as a result of the permissiveness and acquiescence of the main world power, Britain.

              The main thrust of my argument was that the French, having lost so many wars, feel that they have something to prove with their military parades and posturing. That there is something psychological at play on a national level, and that France is compensating for past inadequacies and shortcomings with their displays.

              I also believe that Donald Trump also feels he has something to prove to everybody, pretty much every waking minute of his life, as evidenced by his behavior and the things he says. That Trump's psychology is shaped as much by feelings of past inadequacies and failings, as France's is on a national level.

              I'm re-iterating a bit here, but what I'm saying is that France has parades, at least in good part, due to past failings and inadequacies, and Donald Trump likes and wants these same types of parades, in good part, due to these very same type of feelings on his own part.

              I'll go even further. I think that even Trump's run for President was in large part propelled by perceived slights and humiliation, when Obama made fun of him one night at the 2011 White House Correspondent's Dinner. Hats off to Trump, these slights and humiliations propelled him into a course of action that saw him into the Oval Office.

              I suppose the lesson here is to never underestimate the lengths certain men will be willing to go to, and what courses of actions they will undertake, when they feel slighted and humiliated, and have something to prove.

              This stuff about the wars America won or didn't, and middle-aged syndrome is beside the point. But, I don't think we lost our War of Independence or the War of 1812. The United States (aka the Union) was the victor in the Civil War, and Vietnam was for the most part not a conventional war, rather a quagmire-type war marked by insurgency.
              Last edited by Ironduke; 19 Jul 19,, 15:46.
              "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                In the last ~200 years, France has had her capital taken and the country occupied three times. 1815, 1871, and 1940.
                France occupied Berlin a hell of a lot longer than that.

                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                France lost most of her colonial empire after the Second World War in a humiliating succession of military and political defeats.
                They were not the only ones. All the Colonial Powers saw retreat and humilation, especially the Dutch and Belgians.

                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                This is a beside, but France only ever had the Second Empire as a result of the permissiveness and acquiescence of the main world power, Britain.
                Britain lost her share of wars against the French.

                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                The main thrust of my argument was that the French, having lost so many wars, feel that they have something to prove with their military parades and posturing. That there is something psychological at play on a national level, and that France is compensating for past inadequacies and shortcomings with their displays.
                France had a say in German unification, most noteably that a unified Germany cannot be allowed to be neutral and must always be in NATO.

                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                This stuff about the wars America won or didn't, and middle-aged syndrome is beside the point. But, I don't think we lost our War of Independence or the War of 1812.
                The strategic intent of the attacks on the Canadas was to evict the British. That was a failure.

                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                The United States (aka the Union) was the victor in the Civil War,
                Your exact word was American. Either way, either the United States of America or the Confederate States of America was in that war. One America was destined to lose.

                Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                and Vietnam was not a conventional war, rather a quagmire-type war marked by insurgency.
                Insurgency is conventional war. Insurgencies weaken the occupier and buy time for the conquered to mass for decisive action. Historically, insurgency is the norm.
                Chimo

                Comment


                • I'm going to abridge my last post, and strip out the extraneous bits that are beside the point. Wasn't looking to get into a debate on differing interpretations of history, that were only provided as background as to why I think these certain feelings exist.

                  I am after all making an argument as to why I think France has these parades, and why Trump wants them.

                  Feelings of:
                  • inadequacy
                  • shortcomings
                  • failings
                  • having something to prove.


                  Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                  The main thrust of my argument was that the French, having lost so many wars, feel that they have something to prove with their military parades and posturing. That there is something psychological at play on a national level, and that France is compensating for past inadequacies and shortcomings with their displays.

                  I also believe that Donald Trump also feels he has something to prove to everybody, pretty much every waking minute of his life, as evidenced by his behavior and the things he says. That Trump's psychology is shaped as much by feelings of past inadequacies and failings, as France's is on a national level.

                  I'm re-iterating a bit here, but what I'm saying is that France has parades, at least in good part, due to past failings and inadequacies, and Donald Trump likes and wants these same types of parades, in good part, due to these very same type of feelings on his own part.

                  I'll go even further. I think that even Trump's run for President was in large part propelled by perceived slights and humiliation, when Obama made fun of him one night at the 2011 White House Correspondent's Dinner. Hats off to Trump, these slights and humiliations propelled him into a course of action that saw him into the Oval Office.
                  Last edited by Ironduke; 19 Jul 19,, 16:18.
                  "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                    I also believe that Donald Trump also feels he has something to prove to everybody, pretty much every waking minute of his life, as evidenced by his behavior and the things he says. That Trump's psychology is shaped as much by feelings of past inadequacies and failings, as France's is on a national level.
                    No question about it. The man is a walking example of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

                    The DSM-5 indicates that persons with NPD usually display some or all of the following symptoms, typically without the commensurate qualities or accomplishments
                    • Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people
                    • Fixation on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
                    • Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions
                    • Need for continual admiration from others
                    • Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
                    • Exploitation of others to achieve personal gain
                    • Unwillingness to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people
                    • Intense envy of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them
                    • Constantly demeans, bullies and belittles others


                    We can take this a step further and look at the following subtypes:

                    Compensatory narcissist: Seeks to counteract or cancel out deep feelings of inferiority and lack of self-esteem; offsets deficits by creating illusions of being superior, exceptional, admirable, noteworthy; self-worth results from self-enhancement.

                    Malignant narcissism is a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism.
                    Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate.

                    Fearless, guiltless, remorseless, calculating, ruthless, inhumane, callous, brutal, rancorous, aggressive, biting, merciless, vicious, cruel, spiteful; hateful and jealous; anticipate betrayal and seeks punishment; desires revenge; has been isolated, and is potentially suicidal or homicidal.

                    Then of course his obvious signs of early-onset Dementia, which are myriad.

                    Put it all together and this is the man sitting in the Oval Office. But at least he's against abortion and calls liberals hilarious schoolyard names.


                    Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                    I'll go even further. I think that even Trump's run for President was in large part propelled by perceived slights and humiliation, when Obama made fun of him one night at the 2011 White House Correspondent's Dinner. Hats off to Trump, these slights and humiliations propelled him into a course of action that saw him into the Oval Office.
                    I think it was just as much about finding a new revenue stream after The Apprentice was over. He was broke until Mark Burnett came along and once that gravy train pulled into the final station, Trump was right back at Square One, financially, and he knew it.

                    "Donald Trump is a man who ran for office to make his brand great, not to make our country great. He had no desire or intention to lead this nation, only to market himself and to build his wealth and power."

                    "Mr. Trump would often say this campaign was going to be the greatest infomercial in political history. "He never expected to win the primary. He never expected to win the general election. The campaign for him was always a marketing opportunity."
                    ~ Michael Cohen, testimony to Congress
                    “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                      I'm going to abridge my last post, and strip out the extraneous bits that are beside the point. Wasn't looking to get into a debate on differing interpretations of history, that were only provided as background as to why I think these certain feelings exist.

                      I am after all making an argument as to why I think France has these parades, and why Trump wants them.

                      Feelings of:
                      • inadequacy
                      • shortcomings
                      • failings
                      • having something to prove.
                      Think you're way over-exagerating the French bit. No kid waiting in line for the next Iphone cares one iota who occupied whom. What they do care about is the smack down they want to give when anyone insults them and that includes the French nation. Those parades were a mainstay for even before the C20. Note the name, Bastille Day. It's their day of independence. Of course they would want to show their pride in their own country.

                      As noted, military parades are not uncommon across the world. Only ABCA has a disdain for them. Russia certainly shows of more military hardware than the French including ICBMs, especially during the days of the USSR and no one could ever described the Soviets as being inadequate, shortcomings, failings, having to prove something.

                      Even for ABCA, it's not uncommon that we send whole companies to march in someone else's parade, including Russia's.
                      Chimo

                      Comment


                      • The Bastille Day parades were introduced in 1880 - along with making the day a national holiday - on behalf of the then new "first republican president" of the Third Republic who sought to push down his monarchist predecessors politically - because, well, that's that Bastille Day celebrates. Realistically it originally failed in that aim as those tossed-down and shamed political elements rallied behind Georges Boulanger in the second half of the 1880s who used a populist platform to push ultra-rightwing positions, going as far as trying to push for a "popular coup d'etat" in 1889 (which led to his group suddenly entirely falling out of favour with the population).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                          I'll go even further. I think that even Trump's run for President was in large part propelled by perceived slights and humiliation, when Obama made fun of him one night at the 2011 White House Correspondent's Dinner. Hats off to Trump, these slights and humiliations propelled him into a course of action that saw him into the Oval Office.
                          It was very gentle and genteel. He appeared to take it well. Compare that to what he usually gets now he's in the WH.



                          As for trying to reverse everything Obama did, i'm not sure what is driving that. Just partisan or something else.

                          People say if you expect to make a mark as president you need two terms as that way you have some thing left when the next guy comes in and undoes it. I'm not sure whether it works if next guy also gets a second term : )
                          Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Jul 19,, 17:56.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            As for trying to reverse everything Obama did, i'm not sure what is driving that. Just partisan or something else.
                            A pathological hatred of Barack Obama, plus it plays well with his base.

                            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            People say if you expect to make a mark as president you need two terms as that way you have some thing left when the next guy comes in and undoes it. I'm not sure whether it works if next guy also gets a second term : )
                            If Trump wins a 2nd term, he'd better hope that the GOP wins/keeps both chambers. Otherwise he's deader than dog shit, legally.
                            This assumes of course that his Dementia doesn't render him unfit to so much as tweet in a comprehensible fashion (worse than he already is, I mean)

                            He was extremely fortunate to have the GOP control both chambers during his first 2 years. They were able to 'run down the clock' for him by a considerable amount.

                            Naturally he didn't do diddly shit with that kind of legislative muscle, but hey what do you expect from a person like Trump?
                            He probably doesn't even know the first three words of the Constitution, let alone anything substantial about the contents.
                            “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                              You forget one big factor. Luck. Up until WWI, both Britain and the US had plans for war against one another and it was a close call whether the US was going to side with the Kaiser or the King.
                              I remember an American of German ancestry telling me there was a vote to decide the national language and English beat out German by just one vote. Imagine if the Americans decided German was to be their national language : D

                              By the 1870, Brits & Americans were talking about how similar they were. Entering into the 20th c the idea of fighting each other is seen as committing fratricide.

                              Question i raised few pages pages back is still relevant. Why does the British king only show up in the US in 1939. The two had been drawing closer for at least half a century prior. I suppose 1939 can be explained as showing solidarity for the upcoming WW2 but why leave it that late.

                              One for Kori to answer.
                              Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jul 19,, 10:23.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ironduke View Post
                                I'm going to abridge my last post, and strip out the extraneous bits that are beside the point. Wasn't looking to get into a debate on differing interpretations of history, that were only provided as background as to why I think these certain feelings exist.

                                I am after all making an argument as to why I think France has these parades, and why Trump wants them.

                                Feelings of:
                                • inadequacy
                                • shortcomings
                                • failings
                                • having something to prove.
                                I was thinking this would be a British way of describing it. They aren't too hot about military parades either. Soldiers marching and horses is one thing but any military hardware would be seen as "a bit much". The symbolic display would be enough. Makes the point.

                                As for the French, they were the inspiration for Trump apparently according to this article

                                America Has a Long History of Military Parades | NI | Feb 08 2018

                                Date of this article is a year and a half ago. What queers military displays in the 70s is the anti-war sentiment.

                                When i think back to the 80s and opposition to Trident, there would be no question of ever displaying it in a UK parade. The opposition to Trident is insane when you think about it. The only means of nuke delivery the Brits have is sea based. No land or air. At the time the opposition whined about the costs so it just as well Maggie got her way.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jul 19,, 10:19.

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