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Thread: Trump's 4th Of July Parade

  1. #91
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    kato, are you just sharing with us examples of how this hardware is being used in France or Germany to be informative, or are you using these as an example to make a point about subjects being discussed?

    I'm just trying to figure out where you're going with this.
    Life... is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable, because all you get back is another box of chocolates. All you've got left in the end... is an empty box... filled with useless, brown paper wrappers.

  2. #92
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Fighter jets aren't being used for law enforcement purposes. They're not carrying out airstrikes on the citizenry or carrying out policing actions on civilians.

    Armored vehicles, however, are being used in situations in which the application is completely unwarranted. I wouldn't say it's happening all the time or it's standard operating procedure, but there are instances in which these vehicles have been used aggressively out of proportion to the situation.

    This is just a particularly extreme example of what's really a general problem.
    Individual jurisdictions means some will go to extremes. What about push back from the public ? media gets all over it

    Charlottesville. Saw this yesterday.

    Saw one armoured vehicle here. Could be more. For a small town dealing with and influx of so many people, the cops that had to separate the two camps utterly opposed to each other it appeared professional. Cameras recording every single move. I could not oppose APC's in such a situation.


    Escalation by police to maximum force, violence, intimidation, instillation of fear out of all proportion to the situations they're confronting is very common, and a major problem. Not all cops do this, and they don't react to all situations in this manner, but it's still far common than it should be.
    If there is one way to characterise cops in the states this would be it. Overly aggressive.

    Again why not address the source right here.

    I read stats saying we don't have enough cops per 1000 people. In some places they have enough or too many and Z described it as feeling they are out to get you. You are most certainly presumed guilty on the spot at this level of the law enforcement chain.

    Like I said, in my opinion, we need a little more Andy Griffith, and a little less of this paramilitary commando stuff when it comes to everyday run-of-the-mill situations and crimes.
    So the question here is why are they resorting to so much overt force. It's to intimidate but who are they intimidating. People that are potentially armed. That changes the mix. If you need to enforce the law on such people then to be credible and have a monopoly on violence requires overt displays like this.

    Then again it could be as simple as arms surplus, need to sell it somehow. Good quality. Let the cities have them.

    Giving them armored vehicles when there's already this problem is like pouring fuel on a fire. Tanks and military vehicles rolling down the streets in NK-style parades only further normalizes the presence of this hardware among the civilian population.
    Aha, now we're getting some where. Though i suspect this is the tip of the iceberg. If the avg cop is going to treat the public like potential repeat cons that is a bigger problem. I don't know how you walk this back other than behaving in a non-threatening way.

    I don't want tanks and APCs rolling down my streets, and obviously, many other Americans feel the same way. Don't care if it's a "just a parade". These vehicles don't belong in our neighborhoods.

    Not sure if you're capable of comprehending this, I'm beginning to feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. People are justified in having these perspectives, especially in light of certain practices and experiences.
    When did these armoured vehicles start showing up ? As I said i didn't see any when i was there.

    The other thing would this view be any different if i asked the question say 30 - 40 years ago ? would people still be as opposed.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jul 19, at 19:09.

  3. #93
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    In Karnataka in particular, I've seen the police equipped with both the lathi and SKS-type rifles. Though since you mention it, I do recall a fair number of thugs getting warded off by cops making threatening gestures with a lathi. I don't remember those cops being equipped with 7.62 battle rifles.

    In one particular instance, a beggar kid, perhaps 6 years old or undersized from malnutrition, was pestering me and other foreigners for money. A Bangalore cop, on his own initiative, walked up to us, and with a slim stick of bamboo started whipping the kid. The kid was dodging and weaving, avoiding several strikes, but getting hit by others, all while laughing and making karate/kung fu-style moves to mock the cop, before running off. :-)

    In this instance, the cop, the beggar kid, and onlookers all took it in good humor.

    In America, there'd probably be a response of overwhelming physical force and painful restraint, or a taser, pepper spray, and perhaps something even worse. Maybe what I'm trying to say is police attitudes can be militarized, even in the absence of military hardware.

    It's probably cheaper for the police to acquire surplus 7.62mm battle rifles that are 50+ years old, rather than a new pistol. The only police I ever remember seeing carrying a sidearm were typically precinct chiefs and his lieutenants.
    I understand Americans concern about their police and the policing they do. Just a few days back an American cop, got convicted because he killed an Aussie woman, who infact called the cops about some domestic violence in her neighbourhood. See this is the problem with your police. Too much reliance on guns. Shoot before talking. There are bad neighbourhoods everywhere, but militarization of police can't solve this issue.

    In India, I can beat up a policeman and nobody will shoot me (if I'm not a wanted criminal/terrorist ofcourse), but if police manages to catch me, I will be subjected to 3rd degree torture in the prison cell, which is again very very wrong. Our police force is ill-equipped in terms of manpower and weapons. They don't want to file an FIR if someone goes on to complain about a cellphone theft. Heck, police don't even want to register a complaint about rape. We all have our own demons to deal with. America or India doesn't matter, unless the police is trained to be sensitive to actually think of people as human beings and not as a case, things won't improve.
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  4. #94
    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    If you're ok with jets then what is the big deal with tanks. They're your tanks. What i find interesting is TH linking to a retired general's views. Meaning even the military considers it inappropriate. Which is odd, you'd think they be out in their best colours in front of their people. Military deploys abroad not at home.
    Tanks rumbling down a street antagonize people who then want to eliminate said tanks.


    Airport security was tight in India even in the 90s. I was identifying my luggage out on the tarmac before they let it into the hold back then.

    Compare the airport here with JFK. You can sit with your loved ones in the departure lounge. Something i've never experienced in any other airport.

    In an indian airport you say your farewells at the entrance of the airport. Arrivals is different but departures is passengers only which completely sucks.
    Pre 9/11. Now you can only get as far as the check-in counter and only people with a boarding pass are permitted through the TSA checkpoint. So you cannot kick back with your guest while they await their call and have a drink with them once inside. Dropped my wife and son off last night at SFO.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    kato, are you just sharing with us examples of how this hardware is being used in France or Germany to be informative, or are you using these as an example to make a point about subjects being discussed?
    The example in it is that there are instances where you may want the police to have the necessary equipment to escalate.

    This is something that simply "isn't there" in the US. Yes, there may be some riot police equipped similarly with some police precincts. But the next step, if those few hundred men aren't enough, or if the opponents degree of violence overwhelms local police forces? That's generally the national guard in the US. As in military equipped as such, trained as such and following procedures as such. There's also - at least in recent decades - a fair chance of local police and politicians refusing to go that particular step, mostly because it'd mean they'd lose the control they have.

    I'm aware that you don't quite have a "riot culture" in the US like we do in Europe. But thinking back over the last 30, 40 years, there were plenty of instances in the US where a properly equipped larger-scale (state-level) police force with - if the situation calls for it - heavier armament would have been quite useful. And yes, there are instances among these where you do want an APC protected against small arms fire with a dozer blade on the front, a floodlight on top and at least a behind-armor firing port for a rifle in a raised position.

    Personally, i'd advocate for state police forces in the US. Ones who'd have the equipment mentioned, but ones who aren't military - but trained police officers acting under state-level unitary procedures. Once this is in place one can seriously question whether "local police" should retain any such equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Tanks rumbling down a street antagonize people who then want to eliminate said tanks.
    Mutual escalation. Same reason why riot police with helmets and body armor are far more likely to have rocks/bottles/molotovs thrown at them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    In India, I can beat up a policeman and nobody will shoot me (if I'm not a wanted criminal/terrorist ofcourse), but if police manages to catch me, I will be subjected to 3rd degree torture in the prison cell, which is again very very wrong.
    In Germany, if I beat up a policeman no one will shoot me either. They'll be too busy - five or six at a time - clubbing me and pepperspraying until i don't move anymore and then dragging me bleeding to the next cop car. And - there's statistics on this - there's a 99% chance that i will be arrested.

  6. #96
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    Pre 9/11. Now you can only get as far as the check-in counter and only people with a boarding pass are permitted through the TSA checkpoint. So you cannot kick back with your guest while they await their call and have a drink with them once inside. Dropped my wife and son off last night at SFO.
    For a few months after 9/11 it was like that at JFK and then guess what things went back to normal. I don't know if its still the case today. Apparently not at SFO.

    Being with a passenger until they are about to board the plane is quite unique. In the states this possible as they don't have immigrations when you leave the country. This is another unique practice that you won't find elsewhere. Mind boggling. People told me what is the need if they are leaving and you wonder why the rest of the world does not see it that way.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Jul 19, at 13:07.

  7. #97
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    In Germany, if I beat up a policeman no one will shoot me either. They'll be too busy - five or six at a time - clubbing me and pepperspraying until i don't move anymore and then dragging me bleeding to the next cop car. And - there's statistics on this - there's a 99% chance that i will be arrested.
    You'd have to be quite tough to pull it off. Check this. No APC in sight yet these German cops are in control despite being completely outnumbered by fans.

    This is the 19th century crowd control i'm more familiar with along with the sports atmosphere : D
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Jul 19, at 13:14.

  8. #98
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    In Germany, if I beat up a policeman no one will shoot me either. They'll be too busy - five or six at a time - clubbing me and pepperspraying until i don't move anymore and then dragging me bleeding to the next cop car. And - there's statistics on this - there's a 99% chance that i will be arrested.
    If you beat up a cop in Australia & there are five or six others around you might get the beating, taser & pepper spray option followed by divisional van, probably another beating & jail. Our cops don't muck about. I once saw a cop open the back of a divvy van where a bloke who had assaulted several people was furiously kicking the inside of the van. He reached in, I heard a loud 'zap', and all was quiet.

    On the other hand, if you have a weapon, or police think you have a weapon, or they think you pose a threat to themselves or others, you might well get shot. We have improved markedly in this respect after WAY too many police shootings, but all police out in public go armed & are prepared to use the weapon. We have never been as bad as the US, but in my home state a couple of instances of police being murdered led to a decades long spike in police involved shootings. Fortunately we finally confronted the issue & changed training & culture, but only a fool would take the risk.


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    I was at a cafe when my friend who's a police sgt (former 8th Hussars) dropped by. He was decked out in his kit and I asked him about the weight. 50lbs and he left the back plate inserts in his car (back issues) but he was carrying more rounds than we did in the army. Mind you these were 9mm PB instead of 5.56NATO but there is something seriously wrong when police needs more rounds than the army. And he has a C7 in his car with even more rounds. Though he admits the day he needs that many rounds down range, it is a very, very bad day. However, he does have a point. This is the country and the usual nearest response is 20-30 minutes away and two hours if you need a RRF/SWAT which he was part of the team anyway.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    No APC in sight yet these German cops are in control despite being completely outnumbered by fans.
    The actual confrontation within that crowd only involved about 600 people, out of 40,000 in the overall crowd. There were 250 officers involved in the operation in the video; another 1650 officers (and yes, APCs) were available for backup. They solved the situation at hand by arresting anyone who remotely looked British - literally, out of about 500 British fans in that section of the crowd 375 were arrested.

    That's the capital of the state i live in btw, for World Cup 2006.

  11. #101
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I understand Americans concern about their police and the policing they do. Just a few days back an American cop, got convicted because he killed an Aussie woman, who infact called the cops about some domestic violence in her neighbourhood. See this is the problem with your police. Too much reliance on guns. Shoot before talking. There are bad neighbourhoods everywhere, but militarization of police can't solve this issue.
    I spent roughly a four year period, and another five year period, living a mere mile or two from this neighborhood where the Australian woman was shot.

    It wasn't a bad neighborhood, and Minneapolis is small-time compared to other major metros in the US when it comes to crime levels and violence.

    If a police officer is experiencing that much fear in the course of their duties, in my opinion, they're not fit for that particular position in the profession. A tendency toward fearlessness combined with restraint is, in my opinion, more suitable for certain types of police work. Other tendencies would be suitable for other types of police work.

    It's better, I think, for police to assume that people aren't a threat and be wrong, than the other way around.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 13 Jul 19, at 20:28.
    Life... is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for. Unreturnable, because all you get back is another box of chocolates. All you've got left in the end... is an empty box... filled with useless, brown paper wrappers.

  12. #102
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    I am conflicted when it comes to Trump. I like his anti-PlSslam policies, but i dislike his immigration policies. But since I am more concerned with Muzzs I would prefer him to stay for another term. Being elected for a 2nd term will also boost right wing Nationalists in Europe which is also a positive development for the region.

  13. #103
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I spent roughly a four year period, and another five year period, living a mere mile or two from this neighborhood where the Australian woman was shot.

    It wasn't a bad neighborhood, and Minneapolis is small-time compared to other major metros in the US when it comes to crime levels and violence.

    If a police officer is experiencing that much fear in the course of their duties, in my opinion, they're not fit for that particular position in the profession. A tendency toward fearlessness combined with restraint is, in my opinion, more suitable for certain types of police work. Other tendencies would be suitable for other types of police work.

    It's better, I think, for police to assume that people aren't a threat and be wrong, than the other way around.
    Like man. You articulate your thoughts very well in most of your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    I am conflicted when it comes to Trump. I like his anti-PlSslam policies, but i dislike his immigration policies. But since I am more concerned with Muzzs I would prefer him to stay for another term. Being elected for a 2nd term will also boost right wing Nationalists in Europe which is also a positive development for the region.
    Why do you want to commit seppuku here?
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  14. #104
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    Why do you want to commit seppuku here?
    How is this considered committing sepuku? Japan is a wonderful and peaceful country thanks to its homogeneous society. If Japan happened to have a 10% muslim population then things would have turned ugly as Japan will have to deal with endless islamic terrorism and insurgencies. Dragging its economic potential and pushing its population to the edge.
    Look at all the countries with a significant muslim population. India, China, Russia, Myanmar, Thailand, Philippines, Israel etc, wherever there is a significant muslim population, there is also a significant terrorist/ separatist problem. I am simply stating the obvious here. Political correctness is a poison. Its like your doctor refusing to tell you your real diagnosis because it might hurt his patient’s feelings. It never works.

  15. #105
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    How is this considered committing sepuku? Japan is a wonderful and peaceful country thanks to its homogeneous society. If Japan happened to have a 10% muslim population then things would have turned ugly as Japan will have to deal with endless islamic terrorism and insurgencies. Dragging its economic potential and pushing its population to the edge.
    Look at all the countries with a significant muslim population. India, China, Russia, Myanmar, Thailand, Philippines, Israel etc, wherever there is a significant muslim population, there is also a significant terrorist/ separatist problem. I am simply stating the obvious here. Political correctness is a poison. Its like your doctor refusing to tell you your real diagnosis because it might hurt his patient’s feelings. It never works.
    Do you have a percentage of muslims who support the islamic terrorists? Not every German supported Hitler's concentration camps.

    In India, the terrorism problem is Pakistan Army directed and ISI managed. It's not an internal problem. Internal issues are dealt according to the law of the land.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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