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Thread: Trump's 4th Of July Parade

  1. #166
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Very good, this was something i heard in the 90s, internet wasn't fully up and running yet : )

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Question i raised few pages pages back is still relevant. Why does the British king only show up in the US in 1939. The two had been drawing closer for at least half a century prior. I suppose 1939 can be explained as showing solidarity for the upcoming WW2 but why leave it that late.
    The reason for the lack of state visits by British monarchs in general was because they had to fund such visits out of their own pockets or they'd lose their tax exemption - at least that's the reason The Guardian gives. Legally it's more like the expenditures of the court being capped to what the Civil List grants them in financial resources, and George V had about one-third as much available inflation-adjusted compared to Elizabeth II today. Usually therefore the monarchs would rather send the less-entourage-intensive Prince of Wales on a tour to same some money, for example Edward VII visited Canada and the US as Prince of Wales in 1860.

    For the 1920s and 1930s George V's bad health added to that, he did not travel abroad at all after 1925.
    Last edited by kato; 20 Jul 19, at 16:43.

  3. #168
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Think you're way over-exagerating the French bit. No kid waiting in line for the next Iphone cares one iota who occupied whom.
    I'm not talking about the kids waiting in line for iPhones. I'm talking about the people who actually shape French policy, political thought, ideology, the structure of society, etc. The sort of people who graduate from the Grandes Écoles and places like ÉNA, and actually run the country.

    Everyone else in France (and elsewhere) is just an unimportant, obscure, irrelevant grain of sand. Some of them pay tax, some of them get transfer payments. Beyond their immediate family and friends, they don't matter, nobody cares about them. They're disposable, expendable, and replaceable. To the government and their employers they're just a ledger entry, with various numbers and letters assigned to them and associated with them.
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  4. #169
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    The reason for the lack of state visits by British monarchs in general was because they had to fund such visits out of their own pockets or they'd lose their tax exemption - at least that's the reason The Guardian gives. Legally it's more like the expenditures of the court being capped to what the Civil List grants them in financial resources, and George V had about one-third as much available inflation-adjusted compared to Elizabeth II today.
    I see, one looks at the present queen and sees how well off she is and assumes during the days of empire regents would have even more at their disposal, guess not.

    Usually therefore the monarchs would rather send the less-entourage-intensive Prince of Wales on a tour to same some money, for example Edward VII visited Canada and the US as Prince of Wales in 1860.
    This is good enough i suppose not quite it but enough.

    For the 1920s and 1930s George V's bad health added to that, he did not travel abroad at all after 1925.
    This would make travel harder.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Jul 19, at 22:00.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post

    Question i raised few pages pages back is still relevant. Why does the British king only show up in the US in 1939. The two had been drawing closer for at least half a century prior. I suppose 1939 can be explained as showing solidarity for the upcoming WW2 but why leave it that late.
    We've covered that already, remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Of course there was ocean liners, but you're talking weeks just in travel time for the US. That's a long time to be away from home for a British monarch in the age before both rapid travel and good secure communications were available.

    Take a look at this list of foreign visits made by Queen Victoria.
    Dozens of visits, all of them to Western European countries, never further than Italy.

    Notice how not a single visit is to a British possession either.

    I can't find a complete list of Edward VII's visits as monarch, but it doesn't appear that he did anything differently than his mother. He did visit the United States and Canada in 1860 as Prince of Wales.

    King George V visited Delhi in 1911, which was probably the first time a reigning British monarch traveled outside Europe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    I can't find a complete list of Edward VII's visits as monarch, but it doesn't appear that he did anything differently than his mother. He did visit the United States and Canada in 1860 as Prince of Wales.
    Edward VII got to Russia in 1908 as king, which is significantly farther than Victoria.

  7. #172
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    I think it was just as much about finding a new revenue stream after The Apprentice was over. He was broke until Mark Burnett came along and once that gravy train pulled into the final station, Trump was right back at Square One, financially, and he knew it.
    There are many reasons a person may make a decision, some of which they are conscious of, others they are unaware of, and others they are self-deluded about.

    As for the reasons why Trump ran; I'm right, you're right, and there's probably ten other things people could come up with that are also right. At least each in part.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It was very gentle and genteel. He appeared to take it well. Compare that to what he usually gets now he's in the WH.
    In that video, you're looking at a man who has had his jimmies severely rustled, is feeling extreme humiliation, and is just barely containing apoplectic rage. Look at the way he rocks back and forth, in an infantile way, like some kind of autistic child.

    Obama made thousands of people at that dinner laugh at him, with millions more laughing while watching it on TV. Trump had to sit there and take it. Trump doesn't have a sense of humor about himself and seems incapable of self-deprecation. He's self-important and has an extremely fragile ego. He obviously takes himself very seriously.

    Obama got under Trump's skin, and however Trump felt about Obama before, it turned into a rage-filled obsession that consumed Trump from that point forward, for every minute of every waking hour. Trump has probably had nightmares, woken up in cold sweats, experiences PTSD, and likely has had panic attacks over what transpired at that dinner.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 21 Jul 19, at 17:36.
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  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I'm not talking about the kids waiting in line for iPhones. I'm talking about the people who actually shape French policy, political thought, ideology, the structure of society, etc. The sort of people who graduate from the Grandes Écoles and places like ÉNA, and actually run the country.

    Everyone else in France (and elsewhere) is just an unimportant, obscure, irrelevant grain of sand. Some of them pay tax, some of them get transfer payments. Beyond their immediate family and friends, they don't matter, nobody cares about them. They're disposable, expendable, and replaceable. To the government and their employers they're just a ledger entry, with various numbers and letters assigned to them and associated with them.
    You're attributing Bastille Day as a means of compensating their loss of Empire. As pointed out already, others have military parades on their National Country's Holiday. There's nothing out of the ordinary on the French display vis-a-vi other countries, including other NATO partners. France may no longer be a superpower but like the UK, they are still a great power. They are one of three countries who can land a brigade anywhere on the planet at any given time. As such, the people in charge are well aware of their military might ... and of their military limits. As impressive as being able to land a brigade in South Africa, it is no match against the South African military.

    As such, your idea that France is compensating a military parade for military might is unwarranted, especially when compared to their true might and other countries around the world who does this sort of military parades as the norm. Military parades are the norm. ABCA's lack of them is the exception.

  9. #174
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You're attributing Bastille Day as a means of compensating their loss of Empire. As pointed out already, others have military parades on their National Country's Holiday. There's nothing out of the ordinary on the French display vis-a-vi other countries, including other NATO partners. France may no longer be a superpower but like the UK, they are still a great power. They are one of three countries who can land a brigade anywhere on the planet at any given time. As such, the people in charge are well aware of their military might ... and of their military limits. As impressive as being able to land a brigade in South Africa, it is no match against the South African military.

    As such, your idea that France is compensating a military parade for military might is unwarranted, especially when compared to their true might and other countries around the world who does this sort of military parades as the norm. Military parades are the norm. ABCA's lack of them is the exception.
    I'm not sure I'm following you.

    You have mentioned ABCA being the exception, and parades elsewhere being the norm.

    The exception that stands out to me regarding the ABCA countries, is that they have never truly been that badly humiliated. They've never been conquered by a foreign power. Even when they've been on the backfoot, they have emerged from whatever adversity they were in, more or less having saved face.

    These other countries where military parades are the norm, they have all been conquered, occupied, devastated, and humiliated by foreign powers at some point or another. France, thrice in a 130-year period. China had its century of humiliation. Russia was utterly humiliated several times. Italy has lost its independence to the Germans and the Western Allies, and stripped from whatever grandiose imperial ambitions they had.

    Spain lost its independence to Napoleon, and had the final coup de grace to its 500 years of Empire delivered to it by the US in 1899. It must have been especially humiliating to have had the final bits of your empire taken by a country that only came into existence 120 years before. That's insult on top of injury, where one of your worst enemies, England, had a punk kid, and that punk kid walked up to you and took you for everything you had.

    The Arab states are also big on parades, and were utterly dominated and humiliated by Europeans for over 100 years.

    Everything you've had to say so far only reinforces the conclusions I've come to. An exception to parades exist where there's been a lack of national humiliation. Parades occur where humiliation has been experienced in spades.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 21 Jul 19, at 20:18.
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  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    You have mentioned ABCA being the exception, and parades elsewhere being the norm

    The exception that stands out to me regarding the ABCA countries, is that they have never truly been that badly humiliated. They've never been conquered by a foreign power. Even when they've been on the backfoot, they have emerged from whatever adversity they were in, more or less having saved face..
    That's because of big bodies of water. Not our military prowess. Even then, Britain was conquered when she didn't have a navy. Even then, we have faced severe humiliating military defeats. In my lifetime, there's Vietnam and Somalia.

    Going back further, both York (Toronto) and Washington DC was sacked and burned. The humiliation was there. We just ignored it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    Everything you've had to say so far only reinforces the conclusions I've come to. An exception to parades exist where there's been a lack of national humiliation. Parades occur where humiliation has been experience in spades.
    We have our parades too though only after a major war. However, the Guards ALWAYS parade in national capitals on our Nations' Country Day. Might not be as flamboyant as the rest of the world but still a demonstration of our might.

    And let's not forget that the USAF ALWAYS do dog and pony shows on 4 July. So, to say the US doesn't do these kind of show offs is false.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 21 Jul 19, at 19:18.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I'm not talking about the kids waiting in line for iPhones. I'm talking about the people who actually shape French policy, political thought, ideology, the structure of society, etc. The sort of people who graduate from the Grandes Écoles and places like ÉNA, and actually run the country.
    The current foreign minister of France is the son of a car parts salesman and a seamstress who went to the rather average University of Rennes, the interior minister initially dropped out of school at 17 and after two years of playing poker and running around with gang members studied law in Aix-en-Provence.

    While yes, Sciences-Po and Pantheon-Asses as the ivy league equivalent still form the mainstay of the movers and shakers (ENA? Just a civil administration university) there have been some changes to that over the last 1-2 decades. Much like in most of Europe. The generation that rioted in '68 started this and by now we've got the guys born in the 60s and 70s who carve their place out in politics.

  12. #177
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    In that video, you're looking at a man who has had his jimmies severely rustled, is feeling extreme humiliation, and is just barely containing apoplectic rage. Look at the way he rocks back and forth, in an infantile way, like some kind of autistic child.

    Obama made thousands of people at that dinner laugh at him, with millions more laughing while watching it on TV. Trump had to sit there and take it. Trump doesn't have a sense of humor about himself and seems incapable of self-deprecation. He's self-important and has an extremely fragile ego. He obviously takes himself very seriously.

    Obama got under Trump's skin, and however Trump felt about Obama before, it turned into a rage-filled obsession that consumed Trump from that point forward, for every minute of every waking hour. Trump has probably had nightmares, woken up in cold sweats, experiences PTSD, and likely has had panic attacks over what transpired at that dinner.
    I suppose you are reading more than i can here.

    Trump has to sit there and take it ?

    Yeah and so what. If he was the one peddling the birther nonsense then the game was up sooner or later. He got what he wanted. How much of his core supporters dumped him after that. Any one know. I'm thinking not many.

    I'm looking at Trump reversing things more from a partisan lens. There is a theme and he said its going to be America first.

    Obama could not show you what America is about. Trump will. Redefine it if necessary.

    He's going to do that in a way no other president has done so in recent memory.

    And its impossible to survive as a politician and have an extremely fragile ego. Pick one.

    What will get him down like any other leader is if he takes a decision that comes back to haunt him and makes America look bad or similar.

    I cannot offhand recall if this has occurred to him as yet since being president. There is time still.

    I'm still trying to figure out when he will have or had his China test. It's been some time now.

    Bush & Obama had theirs early into their term. China will create some crisis and WH with president has to respond.

    No, Trump instead gave China the America test : D

    Xi's the one sweating right now.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jul 19, at 19:45.

  13. #178
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That's because of big bodies of water. Not our military prowess.
    Perhaps that's precisely why it didn't happen. It doesn't change the fact - it didn't happen. Elsewhere, humiliation, conquest, devastation, plundering, occupation - it did happen.

    Someone might bring up the Glorious Revolution. Where the deposed monarch's daughter and her Dutch husband waltzed into London to the thunderous applause of the population and the acclamation of Parliament. Not the same thing as a seven nation army in Paris, the Prussians in Paris, and the Nazis in Paris.

    Even then, we have faced severe humiliating military defeats. In my lifetime, there's Vietnam and Somalia.

    Going back further, both York (Toronto) and Washington DC was sacked and burned. The humiliation was there. We just ignored it.
    98% of Americans don't know about the Burning of Washington. 97% don't know about the War of 1812. Vietnam and Somalia are pretty small beans compared to having your capital taken three times, being forced to pay reparations and indemnities, being stripped of territory and colonial possessions, being economically plundered and having the fruits of your citizens' labor extracted, etc.

    As far as contemporaneous attitudes are concerned, having a British flying column of ships and Marines burn a 14-year old capital set amidst swamp and plantations, with hardly any people living there, a capital city most of the country at the time was ambivalent about anyways, doesn't really rank up there with what Russia, China, France, the Arab states, Turkey, Italy, Spain, or India have gone through.

    Given the sectionalism in the country at the time, and the attitudes toward a capital nobody really wanted in the first place, I'd say most Americans at the time didn't care. Many may have privately applauded the city's burning.

    Now if the British had sacked and burned Philadelphia, Boston, Charleston, and New York City, burnt down half the plantations in the south, freed all the slaves, burnt half the farms in the north, and carried off a few million barrels of whiskey and a few million bales of cotton back to Liverpool, while enforcing indemnities and bankrupting the United States for the next two generations, that might have been humiliating.

    Burning Washington in 1814 was like shaving a few whiskers. Other countries have had their arms and legs lopped off, and eyes gouged out.

    And the US still came out of the War of 1812 stronger and in a better position than it had gone in. Even if there was no "winner".

    And let's not forget that the USAF ALWAYS do dog and pony shows on 4 July. So, to say the US doesn't do these kind of show offs is false.
    Most US military displays that occur domestically are in large part a form of advertising, to make the military seem cool and appealing to potential recruits.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 21 Jul 19, at 21:00.
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  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by kato View Post
    Edward VII got to Russia in 1908 as king, which is significantly farther than Victoria.
    Ah very interesting, did not know that! Visiting his nephew the Czar and checking up on an important ally.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    There are many reasons a person may make a decision, some of which they are conscious of, others they are unaware of, and others they are self-deluded about.

    As for the reasons why Trump ran; I'm right, you're right, and there's probably ten other things people could come up with that are also right. At least each in part.
    No doubt about it, and of course it wasn't his first time running for President either, despite his usual lies to the contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    In that video, you're looking at a man who has had his jimmies severely rustled, is feeling extreme humiliation, and is just barely containing apoplectic rage. Look at the way he rocks back and forth, in an infantile way, like some kind of autistic child.
    Ohhhh definitely. That rocking back and forth is a classic sign of stress.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

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