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Thread: What's wrong with Hong Kong (and how to fix it)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Bottom line : it still remains possible for a resident of HK to murder or rape another in China, Macau & Taiwan and if they flee back to HK there is no way to bring them to justice in the place the crime was committed.

    How long can this situation endure ?
    So Hong Kong is like every other country in the world. If you don't have an extradiction agreement/treaty with an existing country, you punish the criminal in your own court/jail. Currently, HK has such agreements with 20 countries around the world.

    Don't worry about China. If the crime is big enough, Chinese troops would march into the perp's home and no one would dare to stop them. There's a Chinese garrison in Hong Kong to do just that.

  2. #32
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hboGYT View Post
    Wouldn't make a difference. They could've gone to Antigua anyway.
    If you read Chinese can you tell me what the media coverage of these protests is in China ?

  3. #33
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    So Hong Kong is like every other country in the world. If you don't have an extradiction agreement/treaty with an existing country, you punish the criminal in your own court/jail. Currently, HK has such agreements with 20 countries around the world.
    Didn't work out that way despite the guy admitting to the murder

    Man who killed girlfriend in Taiwan could be free by October, setting effective deadline for Hong Kong government’s extradition plan | SCMP | Apr 29 2019

    High Court judge Anthea Pang Po-kam said Chan’s money laundering was aggravated by a serious predicate offence involving theft from a person he had admitted to killing and that he had brought her property from Taiwan to Hong Kong for his sole benefit.

    But she stressed that Chan could only be sentenced on that basis as the killing was separate from the thefts which gave rise to the present charges.

    “It is understandable that great frustration and a genuine sense of unfairness, to say the least, would be felt when an accused’s admission about killing someone outside this jurisdiction cannot be a basis to bring a murder or manslaughter charge in Hong Kong,” Pang told a full house in court.

    “We should never lose sight of the fact that no matter how likely an accused has actually committed a most heinous crime, he is entitled to the full protection of his rights associated with a fair trial [or] it would mean short-circuiting our criminal procedure and this affects not only the accused, but also the integrity of our entire criminal justice system.”
    Wow!

    So he kills the girl friend then empties her bank account. They bring money laundering charges against him instead of murder charges. Why ? is there no basis to try him for murder in HK as you said

    This 19yr old defendant has good lawyers, all i can say or the prosecution botched the job. He's free to go on the basis of a technicality.

    The High Court heard Chan, 20, admitted to Hong Kong police he had killed his girlfriend, Poon Hiu-wing, 20, while in Taiwan after learning that she was pregnant with another man’s child, hours before they were due to return to Hong Kong on February 17, 2018.

    Back in Hong Kong, the Shenzhen-born student pleaded guilty to four counts of money laundering, which stemmed from his theft of Poon’s property, including her HSBC bank card, a Casio digital camera and an iPhone 6, as well as NT$20,000 (US$650) and HK$19,200 (US$2,450) in cash. He used the stolen money to settle his credit card bills.

    His offence is punishable by 14 years’ imprisonment and a HK$5 million fine.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Jun 19, at 18:26.

  4. #34
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    If HK can evict the Head of the Press Club, they can throw out the used toilet paper. Just no one got the political balls to use political capital to do so.

  5. #35
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    If HK can evict the Head of the Press Club, they can throw out the used toilet paper. Just no one got the political balls to use political capital to do so.
    China warns against foreign interference as Hong Kong bans journalist | AFP | Oct 06 2018

    Hong Kong Leader Declines to Clarify Why British Journalist Forced to Leave | US News | Oct 09 2018

    Should not require political balls or political capital to deal with a simple open and shut murder case.

    I'm reminded of the 2003 protest against a sedition law that China was trying to push in HK. That did not work and the people won. So its not illegal to say HK should be independent but there will be harassment.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Jun 19, at 07:50.

  6. #36
    Senior Contributor Triple C's Avatar
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    Not being able to extradite criminals to other countries was just a pretext for pushing the amendment. Taiwan has been extraditing criminals to other countries for years without even having the benefit of diplomatic recognition, let alone an extradition treaty. Those are legal niceties that a government don't actually need to do business.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  7. #37
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Issue isn't about Taiwan extraditing, its about HK extraditing.

  8. #38
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Taiwan refuses to be used as a prop in this affair, shows solidarity towards HK

    Taiwan blasts HK for using murder case to justify extradition bill | Focus Taiwan | Jun 15 2019

    Taiwan's Presidential Office has blasted the Hong Kong government for using a murder case involving Taiwan as an excuse to legislate a bill that raises human rights concerns, calling such a tactic "irresponsible and immoral."

    "The Hong Kong government's use of a (criminal) case involving Taiwan as a pretext to legislate a bill that may violate human rights is irresponsible and lacks a sense of morality," the office said in a statement Saturday evening.
    The previous urgency for the bill's passage no longer existed, however, after Taiwan's government repeatedly said it would not accept Chen's extradition to Taiwan if the transfer was predicated on the passage of a bill that could raise human rights concerns, Lam said.
    Urging the Hong Kong government to safeguard the region's freedom and democracy, the Presidential Office said Lam's administration should take Hong Kongers' expectations to choose their preferred way of life and government system seriously and respond to them.

    "We are paying close attention (to the case) and support Hong Kongers' aspiration to pursue freedom, democracy and human rights," the office said.

    Meanwhile, Minister of Foreign Affairs Joseph Wu (吳釗燮) took to Twitter on Saturday to vent his discontent with Hong Kong's handling of the controversial bill.

    "I'm deeply upset by the assault on freedom & #HumanRights in #HongKong. Chief Executive Carrie Lam must listen to the people & take full responsibility," Wu said. "Blaming #Taiwan is immoral, shameful & unacceptable. Embrace democracy & stand on the right side of history!"
    And we're back to the central problem...

    Despite the bill's temporary suspension, the continued lack of a mutual judicial assistance mechanism between Taiwan and Hong Kong means Taiwan still has no good option to go after Hong Kongers who commit a crime within its borders but then flee before they are caught.
    so what is the answer, have a judicial mutual assistance agreement between HK & Taiwan, right ?

    Chiu Chui-cheng (邱垂正), deputy chief of the Mainland Affairs Council, the top government agency in charge of cross-Taiwan Strait affairs, told CNA that the government hopes Chen's case can be dealt with as an individual case, instead of being tied to a bill that may pose a threat to human rights.

    "Both sides should explore the establishment of a judicial mutual assistance mechanism based on the principles of equality, dignity and reciprocity, whether it is for individual cases or long-term cooperation," Chiu said.

    But he acknowledged that Taiwan has already made three requests to its Hong Kong counterpart for mutual judicial assistance on Chen's case, but to no avail.
    wonder why

    Asked about the possibility of Taiwan and Hong Kong inking a judicial mutual assistance agreement, Chiu hinted that the chances of signing such a document were low, given the special nature of ties between Taiwan, Hong Kong and China.
    Translation : Won't happen unless China agrees ? cannot be only between HK & Taiwan. Must include China too.

    Otherwise it means HK & Taiwan are not a part of China ; )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Jun 19, at 00:54.

  9. #39
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Who thinks Lam is going to be led to slaughter because Uncle Xi is not impressed ?

    Another chief executive for HK beckons.

    One who can get things done without turning domestic affairs into the evening news around the world.

  10. #40
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Carrie Lam is Chinese and her loyalty lies with the CPC, nothing will happen to her. Interesting to know that her husband Lam Siu-por holds a British passport and teaches math at Beijing Normal University (Normal????), and one of her son Jeremy (British) works for Xiaomi in Beijing.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  11. #41
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    A normal university is one that trains teachers.

    The Chief Secretary, Matthew Cheung Kin-chung, is the likely short-term successor if Carrie Lam steps down. He is a lick-spittle of the first water, and a decidedly second class thinker. Among his brainstorms was to set the minimum wage at the average wage . . . think about that for a minute; I'll wait . . . get it?
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  12. #42
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Carrie Lam is Chinese and her loyalty lies with the CPC, nothing will happen to her.
    She had a job to do, could not do it and embarrassed her boss because now it looks like he had to back down. Xi has enough headaches with Trump as it is.


  13. #43
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    ^ Xi is making himself look like a fool. Life long monarch, trade dispute, HK, Taiwan, Uighurs, Belt and Road etc etc. One shouldn't stretch too much, if one doesn't have the means. China ofcourse has the means, dollar wise, I'm talking about execution. With troubles mounting, Xi probably is thinking 1 term was enough, should have let somebody else deal with this shit. For course correction, who'd show him the correct path? He sits at the top of the hierarchy, and no one below would ever think of criticising him.

    This is the beauty of democracy. One can criticize Trump all he wants, and nothing will happen. Criticize Xi, and disappear. Or get your organs harvested. :D
    Last edited by Oracle; 21 Jun 19, at 03:20.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  14. #44
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ^ Xi is making himself look like a fool. Life long monarch, trade dispute, HK, Taiwan, Uighurs, Belt and Road etc etc. One shouldn't stretch too much, if one doesn't have the means. China ofcourse has the means, dollar wise, I'm talking about execution. With troubles mounting, Xi probably is thinking 1 term was enough, should have let somebody else deal with this shit. For course correction, who'd show him the correct path? He sits at the top of the hierarchy, and no one below would ever think of criticising him.
    With the string of setbacks that you listed what are the chances that the people he sidelined in the name of consolidation come back and challenge in their own way.

    This is the beauty of democracy. One can criticize Trump all he wants, and nothing will happen. Criticize Xi, and disappear. Or get your organs harvested. :D
    So the same applies here and its an irony. Xi has not put his name on the extradition bill but he definitely gave it the green light. Now that it has blown up there is some one else that can take the fall. And it shows that an unpopular leader can be replaced in HK, ballot or no ballot. Unlike in Beijing where he is in charge.



    That is the extent of how violent it got a week back. The number of people with cameras videoing makes it seem staged. But it is not. If it was really violent cameras would not be so close. See the end, cops are beating this guy and he's like are you done, can i go home now. He then gets up and walks off.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Jun 19, at 05:10.

  15. #45
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    With the string of setbacks that you listed what are the chances that the people he sidelined in the name of consolidation come back and challenge in their own way.
    What you're talking about is Xi's purge in the name of corruption. There is every chance things blow up in his face, but still some more time to go. Support of the PLA is also vital. The Colonel is the wiser and the more knowledgeable one to add more on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    So the same applies here and its an irony. Xi has not put his name on the extradition bill but he definitely gave it the green light. Now that it has blown up there is some one else that can take the fall. And it shows that an unpopular leader can be replaced in HK, ballot or no ballot. Unlike in Beijing where he is in charge.



    That is the extent of how violent it got a week back. The number of people with cameras videoing makes it seem staged. But it is not. If it was really violent cameras would not be so close. See the end, cops are beating this guy and he's like are you done, can i go home now. He then gets up and walks off.
    Everybody is replaceable. Even Xi is, in the right circumstances.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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