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Thread: Indian Defence News & Discussions

  1. #46
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why do we need the S-400 ? it seems to fill in the gap of missing air squadrons

    https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/66066460.cms

    First time i see CAATSA applies to oil & gas. Are we supposed to give up our Sakhalin concessions next ? not happening.

    Let's take a look at the recent house resolution passed against Turkey. Because similar will apply to us sans the F35 bits

    The next bit isn't relevant to us

    So let's look at the underlined bit, what is this attractive alternative referred to

    They are offering Patriot and saying it is an attractive alternative offer. Patriot has been rubbished by some people in youtube comments. It is not an alternative. It isn't even in the same league as the S400. For example..I was suprised at the push back Nalapat got in the comments in this video.

    Commenter does not mention which american defense blogs. And that channel has an annoying policy where any comment with a link does not appear.

    Turkey condemns “nonbinding” US Congress resolution | Hurriyet | Jun 11 2019

    Now this is interesting. Did the US refuse the sale or tech transfers. I can't see the US refusing patriot by itself to a NATO ally. I mean if they're ok with giving F35 there can be no grounds to refuse patriot.

    However the Russians are also offering tech transfer and here the Americans might have baulked. The same applies to India.
    Lot of technical mumbo jumbo. Oil and gas in CAATSA is news to me. Everything the US administration has put up in CAATSA is strategic. Can't forego our needs and sign-up to CAATSA. Either the US gives a waiver, or we go ahead and buy S-400. Today we come under sanctions, tomorrow it will be lifted. Heck, even the Americans know buying S-400 doesn't mean we shift our loyalties to the Russians. India's loyalty is for India, it's not for sale.

    As for comments, I don't necessarily trust random comments on Youtube. These are big deals. There are fanbois of both clubs each trying to outdo the other. I'll let the GoI to decide on that.

    One thing I don't understand is ToT to Turkey. US never gives ToT. Russians also doesn't. The Sukhois that we make in India is assembled from kits that we get from Russia, much like how the Paks build the JF-17 with imported kits from China. Had the Russians given us ToT, we'd not have been a failure in developing a jet engine. ToT related news in the media is pure bullshit.
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  2. #47
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    As for comments, I don't necessarily trust random comments on Youtube. These are big deals. There are fanbois of both clubs each trying to outdo the other. I'll let the GoI to decide on that.
    He was slamming Nalapat for saying we need to withdraw from the S-400 deal. There is nothing too technical in what he said. Only that matters is whether its correct. From the looks of it i can't see what he said wrong. This is a technical system, there can be no too much tech mumbo jumbo. You understand the pros & cons then fanboys & detractors can be handled.

    One thing I don't understand is ToT to Turkey. US never gives ToT. Russians also doesn't. The Sukhois that we make in India is assembled from kits that we get from Russia, much like how the Paks build the JF-17 with imported kits from China. Had the Russians given us ToT, we'd not have been a failure in developing a jet engine. ToT related news in the media is pure bullshit.
    That's what the Turks say. Their S400 stance is even more curious given their F35 involvement. And they want to buy F35's. Why are the Turks so adamant about S400 unless its just a political stunt. Americans not cooperating with the Gullen thing so this is Turkey's way of getting back.

    Where is the threat coming from. Who wants to attack Turkey. Some of the reports i've seen mentioned Syria. Seriously ?!?

    I have a tough time accepting Turkey's threat perceptions and rationale to acquire S400 are in the same league as Indian threat perceptions.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 19, at 10:12.

  3. #48
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    ^ I think you're right that we desperately want the S-400 as we're short of jets for the IAF. It also gives a lot of visibility inside Pak & China.

    India lining up defence deals worth $10 billion with US amid trade row

    In the pipeline,
    #1. 10 P8I, USD 3 billion. This is apart from the 12 P8I that the Indian Navy already have.
    #2. 30 Predator-B drones, USD 2.5 billion. This is also for the Indian Navy.
    #3. 24 MH-60 Romeo, USD 2.6 billion. Again for the IN.
    #4. NASAMSII, USD 1 billion.
    #5. 6 more Apache attack helis, USD 930 million, apart from 22 for the IAF already inked. Is this for the Army aviation corps?

    We seriously need to upgrade the IAF and the IA.
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  4. #49
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    Work begins on India’s next gen nuclear-powered submarines

    SSN, so Arihant class is the only SSBN. This is apart from the P-75(I).
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  5. #50
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ^ I think you're right that we desperately want the S-400 as we're short of jets for the IAF. It also gives a lot of visibility inside Pak & China.
    So this is another idea i heard about. Place a few batteries at the Pak border and then dare them to do a counter strike after a reprisal.

    Won't work with China as the system would be confused if a barrage of missiles came over.

    India lining up defence deals worth $10 billion with US amid trade row

    In the pipeline,
    #1. 10 P8I, USD 3 billion. This is apart from the 12 P8I that the Indian Navy already have.
    #2. 30 Predator-B drones, USD 2.5 billion. This is also for the Indian Navy.
    #3. 24 MH-60 Romeo, USD 2.6 billion. Again for the IN.
    #4. NASAMSII, USD 1 billion.
    #5. 6 more Apache attack helis, USD 930 million, apart from 22 for the IAF already inked. Is this for the Army aviation corps?

    We seriously need to upgrade the IAF and the IA.
    That's a lot of american pesos !!!

  6. #51
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Humanitarian mission to Mozambique back in March after Cyclone Idai



    https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/conten...ort-mozambique
    Last edited by Double Edge; 27 Jun 19, at 23:49.

  7. #52
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Bharat skewers everything i thought i knew.

    Jaishankar in cabinet, next, F-16 in IAF | Security Wise | May 30 2019

    No, Jaishankar isn't a good idea as FM according to him.

    Because Jaishankar is America's man in New Delhi !!

    What’s new is that Modi felt his NSA, Ajit Doval, couldn’t hack it and cut him off from policies and decisions pertaining to foreign and military affairs, his role all but zeroed out with Jaishankar formally outranking him. This the PM arranged, perhaps, also with a view to taking down Doval a peg or two. It may be noted that Modi denied one of Doval’s sons a BJP ticket to contest the general elections from a hill state.
    This is news to me that Doval couldn't hack it

    But, hey, India and IAF will have the F-16/21 good enough, alas, only to play at war not actually to fight wars with!
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Jun 19, at 12:43.

  8. #53
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Bharat skewers everything i thought i knew.

    Jaishankar in cabinet, next, F-16 in IAF | Security Wise | May 30 2019

    No, Jaishankar isn't a good idea as FM according to him.

    Because Jaishankar is America's man in New Delhi !!

    This is news to me that Doval couldn't hack it
    Karnad doesn't seem to understand that India has not been able to build a single fighter jet, and is using GE engines for the LCA. F-16, if selected will open up the economy for jobs, collaboration with multiple vendors for spare parts and help us understand and build the whole American eco-system of building fighter jets. India is not getting into the lap of the Americans. Jaishankar just said no to Pompeo for the S-400 deal, which I see as strategic autonomy. In all fairness, I have never liked any of his articles. He sounds more leftist than even the Congress. Perhaps he is Russia's man-of-no-use in Delhi.

    Modi denied Doval's son a ticket - isn't it a good thing not to follow the dynastic policies of scamgress?

    About the civilian nuke deal, India is an energy starved nation. Even now, India has power cuts. We cannot keep on burning coal indefinitely, it pollutes. We cannot burn gas, it's costly. He lives in an AC room, out of reality, that the 100s of millions of Indians who doesn't have any respite from the heat, unable to bear the cost of affording 2 square meals a day, cannot afford an AC. And yes, I'm President Trump's point man in WAB. What a joke this dude has become!
    Last edited by Oracle; 29 Jun 19, at 15:14.
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  9. #54
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    G-20 summit: Shinzo Abe links aircraft sale to ‘free, open’ Indo-Pacific

    $113 million a piece for India. It's an ASW flying boat.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  10. #55
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Karnad doesn't seem to understand that India has not been able to build a single fighter jet, and is using GE engines for the LCA.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut

    Yes we can and have. Oh what happened after. Why was there no follow up. Then there is a gap and LCA starts.


    F-16, if selected will open up the economy for jobs, collaboration with multiple vendors for spare parts and help us understand and build the whole American eco-system of building fighter jets. India is not getting into the lap of the Americans. Jaishankar just said no to Pompeo for the S-400 deal, which I see as strategic autonomy.
    I am apprehending S-400 comes at the cost of F16. The hope here is the IAF nixes it because its older and instead the LCA gets developed. Which was on display at an airshow recently. In any case now i know where this whole F16/F21 business came from. Jaishankar.

    In all fairness, I have never liked any of his articles. He sounds more leftist than even the Congress. Perhaps he is Russia's man-of-no-use in Delhi.
    This is the difficult bit. You can't just brush him off as some two bit leftie. He's an India first-er. He's a conservative which makes his critiques more relevant than anything the official opposition comes up with. See interview

    Oh and he was no fan of the S400 either. So the Russian angle is out. He is jarring, no doubt. If he is jarring then that is indicative of the rhetoric we read and are fed. The trick is to figure out where he is right and where not.

    Modi denied Doval's son a ticket - isn't it a good thing not to follow the dynastic policies of scamgress?
    Kids of other BJP leaders have got tickets. I don't have the names but a congress leader mentioning it does not surprise me. So why was Doval left out. Now that i think of it this isn't important. What is important is we learnt a few days after bharat wrote that article that Doval returned as NSA so the part of him not hacking it is incorrect. If that was true Modi would not have chosen him again.

    About the civilian nuke deal, India is an energy starved nation. Even now, India has power cuts. We cannot keep on burning coal indefinitely, it pollutes. We cannot burn gas, it's costly. He lives in an AC room, out of reality, that the 100s of millions of Indians who doesn't have any respite from the heat, unable to bear the cost of affording 2 square meals a day, cannot afford an AC. And yes, I'm President Trump's point man in WAB. What a joke this dude has become!
    I'm a big advocate of coal as its cheap. The problem in India is none of the coal plants use scrubbers. Without that of course it pollutes. Then there is question of where that coal comes from. IIANM Indonesia. Because we aren't mining our own. This could be due to quality reasons as well as cost. The primary reason we are energy starved is every time we want to build capacity the environmentalists come out and protest. There will never be a nuclear power station in Karnataka as the NIMBY sentiment is strong here. They want hydro only and well if the monsoons fail, hello power cuts and load shedding. On top of that there is serious corruption going on here as state govts treat ESCOMS as cash cows. They pilfer money for their own political purposes and so these utility companies are on life support in perpetuity instead of being able to invest in capacity. States that have just one ESCOM are the most corrupt. States where the sector is open to private players have more competition.

    So the idea was floated that nuclear would help fill in the shortfall. Over ten years later what is the legacy of the nuke deal ? according to Bharat it locked us into fission nuclear tech. This is a debatable point. But in exchange we got out of the dog house we were in after the two tests. We can make as many fission nukes as we want. There is no limit on enrichment at the designated military nuclear plants which was a red line for me. The only way to do fusion is test and in terms of deterrence that means a public test. Well, we don't have a need to do that yet. But should the contingency arise i don't think we will avoid it.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 29 Jun 19, at 22:26.

  11. #56
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Here is another example

    What did the Masood Azhar designation cost India ?

    From the US ? compliance with the Iran oil sanctions.

    From China ? bash BRI less

  12. #57
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut

    Yes we can and have. Oh what happened after. Why was there no follow up. Then there is a gap and LCA starts.
    #1. It was designed by a German, Kurt Tank, and ex-Focke-Wulf team members.
    #2. It was meant to be supersonic (Mach 1.5+), but could never fly at speeds beyond Mach 1, primarily because of its engines.
    #3. The engine was 'Orpheus 703' from British manufacturer Bristol Siddeley.
    #4. After India conducted its first nuke test, spares for the Orpheus were difficult to obtain, as also other better engines.

    So, India was dependent on foreign parts and engines then, India is dependent on foreign parts and engines now. Same shit, different eras.

    I am apprehending S-400 comes at the cost of F16. The hope here is the IAF nixes it because its older and instead the LCA gets developed. Which was on display at an airshow recently. In any case now i know where this whole F16/F21 business came from. Jaishankar.
    He was to an extent also responsible for the civilian-nuke deal. Tell me one thing, the design of the airframe of the F-16 is old, but when a new F-16 is built, the airframe is new, isn't it? So what changes? It's still a potent aircraft.

    This is the difficult bit. You can't just brush him off as some two bit leftie. He's an India first-er. He's a conservative which makes his critiques more relevant than anything the official opposition comes up with. See interview

    Oh and he was no fan of the S400 either. So the Russian angle is out. He is jarring, no doubt. If he is jarring then that is indicative of the rhetoric we read and are fed. The trick is to figure out where he is right and where not.
    Oh he is wrong on a weekly basis. He very boldly claimed the Chinese will come by 2012, isn't it? He called the Rafales an unmitigated disaster. For someone of his stature he should talk less and think more. Rafale is much better than the Sukhois, and this is the leverage India got with France to play at an international level. Pakistan stands isolated. 70+ years of isolation have rendered India and some Indians depressed. Every human being needs company. Every country needs allies. What we cannot build, we buy and expect the seller to share some ToT.

    Kids of other BJP leaders have got tickets. I don't have the names but a congress leader mentioning it does not surprise me. So why was Doval left out. Now that i think of it this isn't important. What is important is we learnt a few days after bharat wrote that article that Doval returned as NSA so the part of him not hacking it is incorrect. If that was true Modi would not have chosen him again.
    He saw most of the shit he wrote in his dreams.

    I'm a big advocate of coal as its cheap. The problem in India is none of the coal plants use scrubbers. Without that of course it pollutes. Then there is question of where that coal comes from. IIANM Indonesia. Because we aren't mining our own. This could be due to quality reasons as well as cost. The primary reason we are energy starved is every time we want to build capacity the environmentalists come out and protest. There will never be a nuclear power station in Karnataka as the NIMBY sentiment is strong here. They want hydro only and well if the monsoons fail, hello power cuts and load shedding. On top of that there is serious corruption going on here as state govts treat ESCOMS as cash cows. They pilfer money for their own political purposes and so these utility companies are on life support in perpetuity instead of being able to invest in capacity. States that have just one ESCOM are the most corrupt. States where the sector is open to private players have more competition.

    So the idea was floated that nuclear would help fill in the shortfall. Over ten years later what is the legacy of the nuke deal ? according to Bharat it locked us into fission nuclear tech. This is a debatable point. But in exchange we got out of the dog house we were in after the two tests. We can make as many fission nukes as we want. There is no limit on enrichment at the designated military nuclear plants which was a red line for me. The only way to do fusion is test and in terms of deterrence that means a public test. Well, we don't have a need to do that yet. But should the contingency arise i don't think we will avoid it.
    The big takeaway from the civil-nuke deal is we are free to buy Uranium ore from any country we want. It leaves India's own precious bits for the military nuke complexes. Do you now understand the national interest part behind signing of this deal? India can now generate power through Uranium that is imported, and use the Uranium we extract for building nukes. Lots of nukes including thermo-nuclear ones. Challakere in Karnataka is for this specific purpose, and some other top-secret projects.

    Jaishankar might be US' point man, it's very unprofessional of Karnad to call it such, but we wanted a point man. Jaishankar is India's point man for China too. India needs a point man for every powerful and rich country, from where we can get military, trade, financial and diplomatic support. We cannot live in isolation forever. Name one country other than Pakistan with whom we have bad relations? This is Indian diplomatic finesse.
    Last edited by Oracle; 30 Jun 19, at 16:03.
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  13. #58
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Here is another example

    What did the Masood Azhar designation cost India ?

    From the US ? compliance with the Iran oil sanctions.

    From China ? bash BRI less
    Seems to be. Give and take.

    This guy is not a conservative, he's an isolationist, a pessimist and wants the same FP for India. He grew up when communism was at its peak. Ofcourse his thinking is tilted.

    Let me quote parts of his article, and add my arguments.

    The collaring of Azhar Masood is being hailed as the high point of its foreign policy by the Modi government. Masood is small change for the US and China. Delhi’s endowing the mere UN labeling of this man as ‘global terrorist’ and sanctioning of his outfit — Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), with needlessly high diplomatic value, however, has allowed the transactional-minded Trump Administration and the Xi regime to get a lot out of the Modi dispensation for little. Who can resist such one-sided deals?
    I have said it before, getting Masood listed doesn't change a damn thing. You resisted my argument with talks about the LeT, but then went back after you googled and realised that nothing has changed with the global terrorist tag for Hafiz Saeed. It's business as usual for the Pakistan Army. India has been successful in isolating Pakistan at the global stage. Give and take.

    It reflects, as I detail in my book ‘Staggering Forward: Narendra Modi and India’s Global Ambition’, the working of a small mind for small stake in a small game, and permitting the US and China to advance their agendas at India’s expense. Newsreports describe the tradeoffs negotiated by the Modi regime thus: Washington helps push the Masood issue and expects India will fall in line and cut off oil imports from Iran. The external affairs minister Sushma Swaraj calls US Defence Secretary Mike Pompeo and asks that India be given more time to find alternative sources for the 10% of its energy requirements (or 23.5 million tonnes of oil) met by Iran, Pompeo says nothing doing. Indeed, US officials point to the quid pro quo of Azhar bashing in return for an Indian cutoff of Iranian oil.
    Now he's promoting his book. Who doesn't need money.

    Iran supported Pakistan in all of its wars against India. Iran always votes against India in the UN vis-a-vis Kashmir. India maintained relations with Iran for access to the Northern Alliance, Afghanistan and crude. Give and take.

    Pakistan became a nuke country because of US policy follies and is an international headache now. Do we want another mullah regime with nukes in our neighbourhood? No the F we don't. India should have thought about the hammer falling on Iran a long time back, and diversified its crude purchases. It's Indian diplomatic failure, for which India should not keep crying over and over again.

    Likewise, the exchange is that for Beijing’s removing its technical hold on the terrorist label for Masood India would hold off saying anything bad about the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) even as a 2nd BRI summit of reps from some 150 countries was underway. The trouble here is that while this is a one-off exchange, Beijing may arm twist MEA into making India’s silence a permanent thing, which would be disastrous, because India’s opposition to BRI is a rallying point for a rethink in the region about the costs and consequences, especially in light of the Sri Lankan port of Humbantota passing into Chinese hands, of succumbing to the lure of the easy yuan infrastructure credit and falling headlong into a well-laid debt trap or surrendering strategic territory and assets. In fact, states such as Myanmar, Malayasia, Indonesia, Maldives, et al, that had previously jumped on the BRI bandwagon, are using Indian resistance to BRI as a shield to pullback on their commitments, with some countries (such as Ethiopia) even handing over BRI projects to Indian companies to run as economy measures!
    Even if India remains silent about the BRI, the US is not. Many countries where the Chinese invested are speaking out now. Countries that want to join BRI, will join it. India doesn't have the diplomatic stature to stop it.

    Arm-twist the MEA? India has already conveyed to the China about India's position on 1 China policy, which is, the Chinese have to accept a 1 India policy, which is also a mistake on India's part. How?

    Arunachal is Indian territory, so if the Chinese accept that, India will reciprocate and state that Taiwan is China's land? The Chinese have beaten India will shrewd logic and we never even thought about it. Fact is Chinese are never going to get Arunachal, the same fact that India is never going to get Tibet liberated. India should have instead conveyed to the Chinese about our uneasiness about Chinese presence in Aksai Chin and Shaksgam Valley, and in clear terms told them to vacate it. Indian diplomatic stupidity.

    Oh, and one more thing, India doesn't have the financial muscle to challenge China with infrastructure loans to every other country. So India has teamed up with the US and Japan, another diplomatic victory.

    Between Indian ambassadors in the US and the West and whole sections in MEA pushing Trump’s line and an equally powerful raft of China friendlies — Indian Foreign Service stalwarts in service and retired but scheming from the sidelines, and Indian PM Modi who doesn’t seem to understand, even less appreciate, just how leaning towards America or towards China undermines India’s standing and hurts its prospects as great power, blithely extols his supposedly intimate personal ties with Trump and the so-called ‘Wuhan spirit’ with Xi Jinping in striking compromises with the US and Chinese governments, ends up driving India’s national interest into the ground. And all for the dubious success of, and distinctly small returns in, branding Azhar an international terrorist and discomfiting Pakistan, which changes the situation on the ground not a whit. The Pakistan army’s ISI will continue nursing the same terrorists gangs under a different guise, and helping them to sustain their activity in J&K.
    He agrees with my assessment about the Pakistan Army and terrorism.

    But, do we want a war with China and go a decade back in terms of economic growth? Should war dictate terms where diplomacy can be effective? Are we prepared for war? NO.

    I wasn't very happy with Modi's 'Wuhan Spirit', still not happy, but it has enabled India to focus on other pressing matters. There is power cut everyday for 6-8 hours, and we should go to war with China, with Insas rifles that jam always. Yeah right.

    But it will hugely complicate, as this analyst has been warning for years, our relations with Tehran and the great oil deal India has been benefiting from for years. Which other oil supplier will provide terms that Iran does of deferred payment, barter arrangements to pay for oil in kind, and free shipping? And what will happen to India’s ambitious strategic plans for developing Chabahar, the Iranian port, as India’s economic gateway to landlocked Afghanistan and the Central Asian Republics, and as foundation for a strategic approach to outflank China (and Pakistan) both on land and sea? Perhaps, these objectives don’t count any more.
    CAR is insignificant, India has other nations to trade with. If Chabahar port doesn't materialise, India will build a first class navy with ASW platforms that she is buying from the US and Russia, that stops Chinese activity in the IOR, and block the Malacca Straits & Gulf of Oman when crisis hits. As about Afghanistan, sure we want to help them, that is, if we can. We have our limitations.

    The irony is this: The US will ultimately cut a deal with Iran and will have no qualms about making its allies (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan) and economic partners (China, India) who rely on Iranian oil stranded, suffer the sting of US sanctions for continued offtake of Iranian oil, while also pressuring the more weak-willed among them, such as India, to zero out their oil imports, which of course, will seed anger for India and Indians in Tehran, and waste away the store of goodwill India has collected over the years, and motivate Tehran to chip away at India’s foothold in Chabahar with a spate of restrictions, even as the more strongwilled China who, in the final analysis, will cock a snook at Washington than give up Iranian oil, will be rewarded with greater opportunity to make inroads in Iran by boosting its economic and other presence there. Nice going, Mr Modi.
    Karnad is not an idiot, but he never understood the finer points of diplomacy. This is not how India conducts its foreign policy. We might cut Iranian oil imports, but we still will do what is in out national interests. India will maintain relations with Iran through Khamenei, and with Iran post-Khamenei.

    North Korean students study in India, they still do. If an Indian is kidnapped in NK, we can get him out of there in 2 days. The IN & IAF airlifted Indians, Pakistanis, Americans and a host of other nationalities from Yemen in 2015. This is India's soft power that our diplomats pursue. Karnad doesn't even try to understand any of these.

    This below, is what Karnad types will never understand:
    Name:  Screen Shot 2019-06-30 at 11.42.15.png
Views: 24
Size:  79.6 KB

    JAI. RIC. See what I'm talking?

    Source

    US wants JAI to develop 5G technology. China has invited India to RIC for the same 5G. See where we stand. We have the best from both camps. We'll take some from this camp, some from that camp, all that suits our national interests.
    Last edited by Oracle; 30 Jun 19, at 16:22.
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  14. #59
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    He called the Rafales an unmitigated disaster. For someone of his stature he should talk less and think more. Rafale is much better than the Sukhois, and this is the leverage India got with France to play at an international level.
    He thinks 2 Su30's for the price of one Rafale is a better deal. He's referring to upgraded SU30s here or 'Super sukhois'. The other point is the lifetime costs of the Rafale in comparison. Ultimately 36 is too few to be of any use. We need more to be effective. Will we get them. If they are so expensive then how can we. Which begs the question why we got them in the first place. MBDA, maker of the meteor A2A missiles refused to integrate them with the Su30 or LCA. So Rafale it was. Whether this leverage with France you speak about is worth this cost.

    https://bharatkarnad.com/2018/06/24/...ch-connection/

    The access to the French ICF (inertial confinement fusion) facility near Bordeaux was the selling point from the start
    That is the french nuke test simulator

    The advantage with the Rafale is i think is the faster turn around time. More sorties per day possible with the Rafale.

    An interesting user comment from one of his articles

    The entire bias of the IAF against FGFA, HAL, LCA, Su-30 in favor of western aircraft might seem puzzling but it is easily explained.

    The IAF maintenance depots are a big financial empire for the IAF accounting for a large part of the life cycle budget especially if IAF can show that aircraft are being maintained there. Unlike HAL maintenance contracts, the finances of these depots are probably less transparent. IAF depots are direct competitors to HAL maintenance, and can more easily service western origin aircraft (which are modular). As a result, IAF is willing to even buy vintage western aircraft to keep control of large maintenance budgets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Tell me one thing, the design of the airframe of the F-16 is old, but when a new F-16 is built, the airframe is new, isn't it? So what changes? It's still a potent aircraft.
    His argument is its an old aircraft. How potent it is depends what its up against. The Paks have had them for thirty years so how potent will they be against them. The JF-17 is a Chinese copy of the F16. That's what the Paks will use.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Jun 19, at 18:18.

  15. #60
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Seems to be. Give and take.

    I have said it before, getting Masood listed doesn't change a damn thing. You resisted my argument with talks about the LeT, but then went back after you googled and realised that nothing has changed with the global terrorist tag for Hafiz Saeed. It's business as usual for the Pakistan Army. India has been successful in isolating Pakistan at the global stage. Give and take.
    It's clear to me now that the reason the govt pushed for the Masood designation is domestic compulsions. This is what we did, we isolated Pakistan.

    Let's go back to 2008. What was the give & take to get Saeed and three of his top cadres listed within a couple of weeks.

    That we don't attack Pakistan after 26/11 ? speculation by me

    The Americans would want that. What would China have wanted back then..no idea.

    When we look at these non public domain give & takes these designations come with a price tag. The end result which is what we hear seems trivial ie assets freeze, travel ban & arms embargo. Because we don't see the behind the scenes wheeling & dealing.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 30 Jun 19, at 18:06.

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