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Thread: Indian Defence News & Discussions

  1. #271
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    When the SC found no basis in the opposition's charge of corruption with the Rafale, said parties then filed a review petition which has been rejected again

    A politically motivated false campaign is a false campaign. It does not matter how many times you make the SC review its judgement, the result will be the same. And i'm under no illusions had Congress been the one to initiate the Rafale deal it would then be the BJP pushing this BS !!!

    What is the result ? defense acquisitions of big ticket items will be stymied.

    Rafale verdict will strengthen govt hands in future defence purchases | Moneycontrol | Nov 14 2019

    To be clear, while the Rafale deal was clean, there was much that could have been used to grill the Air Force with. For example, the way the Air Force diverted a large quantity light fighter replacement contest to a heavy fighter, and chose an unaffordable fighter that could only be procured in limited numbers was a blunder. However, blunders and misjudgement are not crimes.

    What the corruption allegations have done is given a halo of invincibility. The verdict is a much-needed boost that will strengthen the government’s hands in future purchases. Contrast this with Bofors — the scandal that dealt a body blow to defence modernisation in the 1980s. The question is will the Rafale acquittal lead to a course correction and economically-feasible purchasing, or will it lead to hubris and binge spending on weapons we can't afford?
    There is no shortage of opinion on what fighter jet we must not get. AIM says Rafale was too expensive. Or there is the we should be building more LCA's instead line. Then there is we should be getting F16's line.

    The IAF has chosen Rafales and that is the end of it.

    He leaves the impression that the French got their fingers burnt in this deal by being misrepresented and dragged through the mud.

    Heh, they know what politics is like. They bagged a multi-billion deal with the possibility of more. I think the French will get over this.

    What will be of relief to both the French and the business community will not just be the verdict, but also the refusal of the court to overstep its mandated authority. Perhaps, most importantly, the speed at which the hearings were completed and judgment delivered came as a pleasant surprise in a country prone to chronic case pendency and judicial delays.

    In a sense, then, at least some positive has come of this entire sordid episode. Foreign vendors, governments and local industry, who regularly and bitterly complain that it is the single-biggest risk to be factored into their bottom lines, can now look upon this judgment as boosting their confidence in dealing with the Indian defence market.

    However, the fact remains that one salutary judgment alone will not change the impression of India's defence market being an endemic cesspit of high volatility and whimsical personality-driven decision-making. Till that is sorted out, expect to see more such scandals — real or manufactured — erupt.
    Any one who bags a big arms deal with India knows that
    Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Nov 19, at 22:15.

  2. #272
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Indian Army received first batch American assault rifles for operations in Jammu and Kashmir | India Today | Dec 11 2019

    First installment out of an order of 72k Sig Sauer 716 rifles. Only took about 15 years to get them.

    In a bid to fight terrorism and for carrying out major operations in Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Army received the first batch of American SiG Sauer assault rifles.

    The induction of these new assault rifles with the troops in operation will help them to operate more effectively in engagements with the terrorists in Pakistan and PoK.

    The Indian Army is looking to move to a rifle that fires a larger, more powerful rifle cartridge than the 5.56x45mm intermediate cartridge used by the Insas. The SIG716 uses the more powerful 7.62x51mm cartridge.

    The Indian Army will also receive a major boost with the induction of more than 7 lakh AK-203 assault rifles which are going to be produced in the joint venture between India and Russia.

    The Paks use H&K G3 and even the AK-47 variants that terrorists use are better than the now aging INSAS rifles the army & paras use.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Dec 19, at 18:53.

  3. #273
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by double edge View Post
    first installment out of an order of 72k sig sauer 716 rifles. only took about 15 years to get them.
    :d :d :d
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  4. #274
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    yes that is the sad part. The demand was made 15 years ago. The MOD sat on it and then one fine day got their finger out and did it.

  5. #275
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure where to post this so i will put it here

    China and India’s maritime rivalry has a new flashpoint: the Andaman Sea | SCMP (op-ed) | Dec 14 2019

    - The revelation that the Indian Navy had forced a Chinese research vessel out of Indian waters is the latest sign of Beijing’s interest in the waterway

    - China is looking to deny India the strategic and military use of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, through means such as expanding its submarine fleet

    Yogesh Joshi
    Published: 10:30am, 14 Dec, 2019


    The Andaman Sea is fast becoming the latest flashpoint of Sino-Indian maritime rivalry in the Indian Ocean. China’s increased interest in the region is evinced by the revelation earlier this month that the Indian Navy in September expelled a Chinese research vessel by the name of Shiyan 1 after it was found intruding into the exclusive economic zone off the coast of India’s Andaman and Nicobar Islands. As Indian Navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh argued in a press conference last week, the Chinese ship was operating in Indian waters without permission.

    China’s presence in the Indian Ocean has increased dramatically in the past decade, along with its economic and military rise. While it barely had a footprint there in the late 2000s, today an average of eight to 10 People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) ships, submarines and research vessels are operating in those waters annually. New Delhi has repeatedly expressed its concerns regarding increased Chinese naval activity in the Indian Ocean, which it considers its backyard – but naval intrusions in and around the Andaman Sea are particularly disturbing for the Indian Navy.

    The Andaman and Nicobar Islands bestow upon New Delhi an immense geographical and military advantage. The Andaman Sea connects the Eastern Indian Ocean with the Pacific Ocean through the Strait of Malacca. Whoever controls the Andaman basin controls the Malacca strait. The islands also allow India to project military power across the Bay of Bengal and Southeast Asia; they are New Delhi’s unsinkable aircraft carrier.

    In the case of a Sino-Indian maritime conflict, the islands would also constitute India’s first line of defence. A swift naval victory around the Andaman basin would result in significant degradation of the Chinese maritime threat in the rest of the Indian Ocean.

    However, the PLAN is leaving no stone unturned in challenging India’s predominance in the Andaman Sea. Since at least 2012, the Chinese navy has conducted regular submarine patrols there. According to Indian Navy sources, an average of three to four Chinese submarine contacts have been identified every three months. The PLAN has been known to use its vast submarine fleet to conduct reconnaissance and surveillance missions in these waters. The Chinese navy’s interest in the Andaman Sea is a by-product of Beijing’s Strait of Malacca dilemma. China’s economy relies heavily on sea lanes of communication passing through the waterway; it therefore fears a situation where hostile powers could interdict these vital economic lifelines. Moreover, the geostrategic importance of these waters has increased dramatically under China’s Belt and Road Initiative.


    Under the infrastructure plan, China is involved in significant economic, connectivity and development projects along the littorals of the Andaman Sea. As a flagship project under the China-Myanmar Economic Corridor, Beijing is building a deep-sea port in the Kyaukpyu islands across the Arakan coast. It is also laying down a railway line connecting Yunnan province to Mandalay. The proposed Kra Canal – connecting the Andaman Sea and the Gulf of Thailand – would fundamentally transform the geography of the Bay of Bengal and bring China right to the doorstep of the Eastern Indian Ocean. These projects have dramatically changed China’s economic and political interests in the Andaman Sea.

    The PLAN’s strategy to counter threats to China’s political and economic interests in the region is one of “sea denial”, the military term for denying an enemy use of the sea without controlling it. Unlike the South China Sea, the PLAN cannot project naval power in the Andaman Sea because of its geographical disadvantage. However, using sea-denial platforms such as submarines, it can also eliminate the possibility of India dominating these waters. Therefore, the PLAN’s significant investment in upgrading its submarine fleet is not without reason.

    India’s strategy to counter the increasing Chinese presence in the Andaman basin is to develop the military and economic potential of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. Earlier this year, New Delhi announced that it would invest up to US$50 billion in developing military and economic infrastructure in the islands. By 2022, India plans to station at least 32 of its naval ships there.

    The main emphasis, however, is on augmenting the Indian Navy’s maritime surveillance capabilities. A significant military infrastructure build-up is taking place at the airbase in Campbell Bay, located at the southern tip of the Andaman archipelago.

    With a refurbished 3,000-metre airstrip, India would finally be able to operate its flagship P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft from the base. The Indian Navy is gearing up to take the PLAN’s challenge head-on.

    In Sino-Indian maritime competition, the Andaman Sea is slowly but surely becoming its most crucial battlefront. The two sides are now locked in a classic security dilemma, in which each is reacting to the other’s naval build-up. While this does not necessarily imply that a clash between the two navies is inevitable, the waters around the Andaman Sea will see the two navies jostling more frequently than in the past.

    Yogesh Joshi is a research fellow at the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore. He can be reached at yogeshjoshi@isas.nus.edu

  6. #276
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    AIM's been critical of the Sukhoi's in some of his earlier talks and i've wondered why. Scary stuff coming at you fast.

    All of it comes from a paper he did back in 2014 when he was at ORF

    Roadblocks to Air Revolution in Indian War-Fighting (PDF) | ORF (Special Report Issue #9) | April 2015

    He'd also given a talk at Carnegie about it. Read the paper then listen to the talk.

    His source for Su30 having trouble in India vice Russia say comes from a debriefing a US pilot made after the Flag '08 exercises.

    Yeah over ten years back. We got a lot of SU30s

    US pilot said the Mig21 with updated avionics was nearly invisble to the F15/16, this could explain why we sent them up last Feb. And the Su30's stayed back.

    To be fair, there is a political problem, but one believed to be surmountable. Russian officials interviewed for this paper were emphatic that the Israelis or French would not be given access to the core electronics of the Sukhoi.

    Similarly, the Israelis have no intention of offering up their jamming algorithms and technology to the Russians, under the guise of integration, on a silver platter.

    For commercial purposes, the Americans are equally adamant that Israel will not be allowed to sell India stand-alone AESA radars and that if India wants to get its hands on these it will have to buy a US system (implying one complete with electronics).
    This is like getting married to many wives. Each one dictating what you can do with the other.

    The Rafale procurement was criticised by large sections of the strategic community, including this author, based on the belief that the Rafale was superfluous and that it brought sub-standard capacity duplication at many times the cost of the Sukhoi. Clearly, this assessment was wrong.

    The reality is that the Rafale, and indeed the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest, at some point mutated into a failure-compensation device for the Sukhoi.

    Much of the confusion surrounding the MMRCA contest – the deeply contradictory and confusing statements regarding weight, cost, numbers, effects, and, especially, the implied nuclear delivery role for the Rafale – indicated that the Rafale would not be complementary to the Sukhoi but, rather, a face-saving gap filler making up for the Sukhoi's disastrous failure.
    So that is putting it quite bluntly.

    In his talk he does not think Cold start is viable but there is a silver lining to that.

    The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he did not exist.

    The greatest trick the Indian military ever pulled was convincing the Paks that Cold start does exist.

    Like doing a Reagan on the Soviets. Get them to spend so they bankrupt themselves.


    He bashed the SU30 and isn't too enamoured about the Rafale either. This earlier paper from 2012 where he gets into the MMRCA deal.

    India and the Rafale : Anatomy of a bad deal (PDF) | IPCS | April 2012

    The basis of any modern arms procurement contest is the quality-quantity matrix which is decided on several key performance features -

    - manoeuvrability,
    - life cycle costs,
    - operating costs,
    - power,
    - range,
    - weapons load,
    - ruggedisation,
    - electronic sophistication,
    - survivability

    in addition to the political advantages and the transfer of absorbable technology.

    If manoeuvrability was key then the only plane with thrust vectoring and thus presumably superior manoeuvrability was the MiG-35.

    If life cycle costs, ruggedisation and operating costs were the key then the Gripen was king.

    Should one have taken systems maturity as a sign of electronic superiority then the F-18 had no equal, with the Eurofighter a very close second – lacking only the active radar. In terms of range, power, survivability and transfer of technology the Eurofighter was well ahead of the pack.

    The only thing the Rafale excelled at was its 9 ton weapons load being nowhere near a runner up in any of the other categories except possibly ruggedisation due to its navalisation

    Tellingly reports in 2009 indicated that the Rafale was the first plane to be eliminated from the contest. After a whole week of silence the Air Force “confirmed” that this was not the case and there was merely some “missing information” in Dassault’s bid. This basically allowed Dassault to “resubmit” information, begging the question - are deadlines actually deadlines?
    Rafale was eliminated and then silently asked to resubmit again. It's no wonder this whole process was so confused.

    The first round of eliminations then confirmed that procurement costs, operational costs, life cycle costs, were not important given that the F16 and Gripen were eliminated.

    Electronic superiority seemed confused since a plane as advanced as the F-18 was rejected but so was the electronically sub-standard MiG-35, the former on the basis of a lack of manoeuvrability, the latter in spite of its supermanoeuvrability.

    Operational sovereignty was obviously high on the agenda given the mass elimination of American made or American powered planes as well as Russian planes given their abysmal records, the former political, the latter logistical.

    The final choice then was for a “jack of all trades” but the two choices were poles apart. While the Eurofighter was almost consistently top of every category – truly a “jack of all trades”, the Rafale was near the bottom of every category – essentially the “dunce of all trades”.

    In terms of electronic sophistication, optronics, future growth, survivability, and power it stood far behind the pack with its only advantages being its 9 ton weapons load and navalisation.
    His preference was for the Eurofighter over the Rafale
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Jan 20, at 23:24.

  7. #277
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    India to acquire 200 fighter jets for Air Force: Defence secretary

    No need to get excited. 83 of those are Mark 1A LCA.

    Colonel, Mark 1A LCA are of this era or the bygone era? White elephant or bank for the buck, considering what the IAF has in its arsenal.

    110 fighters more. Rafale or F-21? S-400 from Russia, my little political understanding tells me it could be Boeing F-18, if not LM's F-21, just to placate the Americans. I read sometime back, the IAF wants more Rafales.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  8. #278
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    If sanity prevails, the IAF would try to keep the number of diferent models down, by ordering more Rafales. A new model of aircraft, completely diferent from current (ie, F-18 or 16) would require another set of spares, training, support, etc. IAF logistics and training schemes must allreay look worse than a labyrinth...

  9. #279
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlvfr View Post
    If sanity prevails, the IAF would try to keep the number of diferent models down, by ordering more Rafales. A new model of aircraft, completely diferent from current (ie, F-18 or 16) would require another set of spares, training, support, etc. IAF logistics and training schemes must allreay look worse than a labyrinth...
    Rafale is what the IAF is most interested in. But, big ticket defense purchases are always political my friend. I just hope it doesn't take another decade.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  10. #280
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Gen Saxena gives an overview of the IADs systems and where different components fit in. Rings of defense with missiles of different ranges.



    How you buy from the Americans AND the Russians and keep both systems sequestered to the satisfaction of either seller is to be seen. Who knows this answer ? Neither Russians or Americans have any experience with a customer who wants to integrate systems from both : D

    How we do the I or Integrated bit with tech from different vendors is another question. Both Russian & American systems have to integrate with our own BMS. They cannot exist as standalone or there is no I any longer.

    We don't get any tech transfer with S-400 and it remains to be seen whether anything comes with the American NASAMs

    We have a certain amount of indigenous capability here when it comes to BMD. But there are gaps in some places which foreign vendors can fill. Americans the short to medium range and Russians medium to long.

    The main reason to buy these systems from the Americans & Russians is our air defense is weak. We are yet to fill the gap of missing fighter squadrons. Those 114 odd more fighter jets we do not have yet. So these missile system purchases are a stop gap fix.

    In time the entire IADS will be indigenous. Insh'allah : )

    Need to get some joint development projects going with the Americans like we did BrahmOS with the Russians.

    It's interesting to note that when the S-400 deal was struck no American air defense system was on offer to us. Neither THAAD, Patriot, NASAMS etc. We had yet to sign the required paperwork. No COMCASA, No Link 16, no logging into NATO's network. Now they have opened up the play store some.

    They said you cannot buy from us if you get the S-400 but we called that bluff.

    Net net that's a win

    Now that all of this sorted, Trump can come over in a week's time.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Feb 20, at 00:32.

  11. #281
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Stronger than sanctions: What’s driving countries from Turkey to India to buy Russia’s S-400? | RT (op-ed) | Feb 15 2020

    the S-400 offers more bang for the buck. The THAAD is a formidable missile defense system, whose reported capabilities against ballistic missiles surpass any rival – but it can only shoot down missiles, and only at very high altitudes (40-50 km minimum).

    For intercepting fighter jets, long-range strategic aircraft or drones, one would need to use the Patriot – which has a sketchy track record in that regard. In comparison, the S-400 can unite the functions of both systems, which makes it far more cost-effective.
    Interestingly, Washington has not sanctioned Beijing over the S-400 purchase, though it had imposed sanctions earlier for buying fighter jets and missiles from Russia.

    Nor have sanctions been implemented against India, despite numerous threats to do so by the US. This might be in part because New Delhi has sought to placate Washington by considering the purchase of American NASAMS II (National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile System) for protection of the national capital region against ballistic missiles. Furthermore, India is in advanced stages of negotiating a $2.6 billion helicopter deal with the US, which could reportedly be signed during President Trump’s visit later this month.
    The $2.6 bn deal referred to here is for 24 Seahawk MH60's

    Modi's cabinet committee on security is expected to clear the purchase of 24 MH-60R Seahawk helicopters for the Indian navy in the next two weeks, a defence official and an industry source briefed on the matter separately told Reuters.

    "It's a government-to-government deal, it is close," said the industry source.
    It's G to G so no corruption

    The multirole helicopters from Lockheed will be equipped with Hellfire missiles and torpedoes, and are meant to help the Indian navy track submarines in the Indian Ocean, where China is expanding its presence.

    Many of India's warships are without any helicopters because of years of underfunding, and the navy had sought their acquisition as a top priority.

    The U.S. State Department approved the sale of the choppers to India last year along with radars, torpedoes and 10 AGM-114 Hellfire missiles.
    Guess the drones below will have to wait for next Diwali : D

    The United States has also offered India the armed version of Guardian drones that were originally authorized for sale as unarmed for surveillance purposes, the first such approval for a country outside the NATO alliance.

    India plans to buy 30 of these unmanned aircraft for surveillance of the Indian Ocean, at a cost estimated to be about $2.5 billion, from General Atomics.

    However, the defence official said the deal is unlikely immediately because of lack of funds.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Feb 20, at 17:36.

  12. #282
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Curious case

    Karachi-bound ship held in Gujarat over cargo that can be used in missile launch | HT | Feb 17 2020

    Part that isn't explained is what was this ship doing docking in India in the first place and best i can find is it arrived to either load or unload something.

    Customs got an intelligence tipoff and impounded the ship

    Not a peep out of China or Pakistan so far
    Last edited by Double Edge; 20 Feb 20, at 03:22.

  13. #283
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    They are saying the autoclave is used for making missiles. I see images from a company called Olympsan that makes industrial autoclaves.

    https://www.compositesautoclave.com/...ion-autoclave/

    Autoclave is used to harden materials that will be exposed to extreme heat. For instance, the inner lining of solid fuel missile launchers.

    What is the problem ?

    China ain't in the MTCR

    Funny thing is China applied in 2004 to join MTCR but was turned down. huh!

    China has exported missiles to Pakistan

    Nothing stops China exporting equipment that can be used to make missiles. Whether it be to Pakistan or even Iran.

    Since this have been going on, for long now, the Americans pulled out of the intermediate missile treaty.

    Program i'm watching on this subject is advocating we take this up with the UNSC and the quad to publicise it.

    With the condition either the world does something or we will and if that's the case in our own way.

    In the meantime, we study this autoclave and what it does then invite the worlds press to witness us blowing it up to high heaven.

    If we cannot blockade Karachi then maybe high seas interception with our navy if we suspect any suspicious cargo.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Feb 20, at 03:02.

  14. #284
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Curious case

    Karachi-bound ship held in Gujarat over cargo that can be used in missile launch | HT | Feb 17 2020

    Part that isn't explained is what was this ship doing docking in India in the first place and best i can find is it arrived to either load or unload something.

    Customs got an intelligence tipoff and impounded the ship

    Not a peep out of China or Pakistan so far
    I read this exact news a while back, this is definitely not news of February. Something's cooking, I don't know exactly what.

    P.S.: Autoclaves are also used as disinfectants.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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  15. #285
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I read this exact news a while back, this is definitely not news of February.
    It arrived Feb 3 and was subsequently impounded

    P.S.: Autoclaves are also used as disinfectants.
    Smaller ones are used by dentists to sterlise equipment. They heat up to 121 degrees C. This is enough to kill bacterial spores.

    The sanitise cycle on a washing machine gets up to 70 degrees C, as that is the minimum to kill most things.

    Autoclave here is an industrial size autoclave from what i understand.

    Name:  olympsan autoclave.jpg
Views: 9
Size:  354.9 KB

    It does have military applications but i don't see misssile launchers mentioned here

    Name:  autoclave application.jpg
Views: 9
Size:  366.5 KB

    Something's cooking, I don't know exactly what.
    If they're going to be sending missile making equipment why do it via India ?!?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Feb 20, at 13:03.

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