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  1. #256
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Because of ...
    and possibly other pending purchases from the US we get ..
    and those S-400's

    So you see how we get shafted here. We have to pay to get waivers. Because we buy from the Russians we also have to buy american. I fcuking hate this!!!

    Can't go for best of breed. Bharat thinks we should be buying the Japanese US-2 instead of presumably those P8 Orions. He does not say more other than the US-2 is best in the world at what it does. It's also not clear why we delayed earlier when the Japs came calling offering finanacing as well.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 06 Sep 19, at 12:51.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Can't go for best of breed. Bharat thinks we should be buying the Japanese US-2 instead of presumably those P8 Orions. He does not say more other than the US-2 is best in the world at what it does. It's also not clear why we delayed earlier when the Japs came calling offering finanacing as well.
    This guy is writing out of his ass. The SU-57 is nowhere near production and until it can solve its engines issue, it's nowhere close to being stealthy. The US-2 is a Search-and-Rescue plane with zero abilities in ASW and battle management. The P-8 can deliver torpedoes. At best, the US-2 can waterbomb a fire, like that's going to be effective against a sub.

  3. #258
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    This guy is writing out of his ass. The SU-57 is nowhere near production and until it can solve its engines issue, it's nowhere close to being stealthy. The US-2 is a Search-and-Rescue plane with zero abilities in ASW and battle management. The P-8 can deliver torpedoes. At best, the US-2 can waterbomb a fire, like that's going to be effective against a sub.
    So i posted your reply on his blog and we got one back : )

    You hugely underestimate US-2’s utility for island defence, medium haul for Special Forces, etc.

    And, in any case, given our maritime territories, US-2 and P-8i are not mutually exclusive needs.
    Hmm...He does not say it can do ASW but island defence

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Hmm...He does not say it can do ASW but island defence
    He still can't tell his ass from his mouth. Island defence and medium haul? It's called the utility/lift helo and India has 200+ and what dumbass is going to risk a C4ISR node in a SF insert?

    I also said battle management. P-8i can co-ordinate with SSK and destroyer screens. US-2 has no such ability. He's trying to square peg a US-2 SAR into round hole military needs and that is not happenning. That is not what the Japanese have offerred. Japan touted a SAR aircraft for a SAR role. At no time did they market the US-2 for military deployments. They have not even develop a military suit for it. It's a SAR aircraft. Period. He's grasping bullshit and calling it roses.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 07 Sep 19, at 23:44.

  5. #260
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    He still can't tell his ass from his mouth. Island defence and medium haul? It's called the utility/lift helo and India has 200+ and what dumbass is going to risk a C4ISR node in a SF insert?

    I also said battle management. P-8i can co-ordinate with SSK and destroyer screens. US-2 has no such ability. He's trying to square peg a US-2 SAR into round hole military needs and that is not happenning. That is not what the Japanese have offerred. Japan touted a SAR aircraft for a SAR role. At no time did they market the US-2 for military deployments. They have not even develop a military suit for it. It's a SAR aircraft. Period. He's grasping bullshit and calling it roses.
    Another reply

    Please refer to an earlier response re: US-2 and P-8i not being mutually exclusive requirements.

    Further, the country’s vast and spread out island territories and EEZ cannot be covered by IN helos.
    What confuses me is this "not mutually exclusive" business.

    What I understand is pick one. Don't need both as the requirements are not mutually exclusive.

    If so and he thinks US-2 is best then he is ignoring the ASW component. This i will need to ask him for a clarification.

    China is investing in area denial capabilities. They use subs and India being able to detect them is crucial i would think.

    ASW is a team effort. Eyes in the sky with SSK's and destroyer screen. All three components of that effort need to interact.

    I think i've found it

    why is COMCASA significant? It will allow the US to comprehensively penetrate the secure Indian communications network, including all command and control links not excluding the Strategic Forces Command (SFC). It means that with the US listening in on the most secret communications traffic within the government and between the Indian government and other governments, it can take measures to preempt decisions and shape policies to ensure Delhi doesn’t depart from the US line.

    It will also be in a position to hinder military communications between senior field commanders and frontline units, between theatre commands and Services Headquarters and the Indian government, and between the Prime Minister and the SFC in a nuclear crisis and, potentially, to over-ride the authority to fire nuclear weapons.

    This potentially fatal vulnerability was the reason the Indian military initially opposed COMCASA. But when have the armed services really mattered, or even really been in the national security decision loop?

    The provisions in COMCASA prohibiting Washington from doing any of the bad things, including the sharing of information and data with adversary states, are but paper assurances reflecting the credulity of the Prime Minister and the Ministry of External Affairs. In reality, however, there is absolutely no enforceable guarantee that Washington won’t violate them.

    Worse, with the P-8Is, and antique platforms, like F-16s and the Sea Guardian drone that Delhi is being pressed to buy fitted with communications gear linked to a “blinking” US Global Positioning System and, more generally, to all platforms and guided ordnance in Indian employ,the entire Indian arsenal will be exposed to technical misdirection.

    The second test of the Agni missile in the 1990s had to be aborted, for instance, because the US GPS it was plugged into blinked. India cannot prevent such mischief because it lacks the technical means to monitor and shut down COMCASA misuse.
    This battle management you mentioned is enabled by COMCASA and he does not like that the Americans can snoop in on comms.

    I don't know if its true. I thought all COMCASA did was allow american platforms to securely communicate with each other. Nobody told me about calling home.

    India would have been strategically empowered had a deal been negotiated to string the US along by approving contingent hookups by Indian forces utilizing the jerry-rigged-system facilitating short-term interoperability of the kind that has enabled the Malabar naval exercises, and case-by-case access to Indian military facilities, to match the CAATSA waiver mode. That way India would have furthered the principle of strict reciprocity and retained its own counter-leverage and leeway,and high-level cooperation with Russia and Iran.
    This is what i thought we did. He makes it sound like we gave away the whole shop by getting into COMCASA.

    If the Americans have issues with S-400 snooping on their stuff why does nobody question whether systems using COMCASA also do the same thing ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Sep 19, at 21:28.

  6. #261
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    An older article. The first P8 deal was inked back in 2009. Took a long time to arrive.

    CAG raises stink over P8I naval aircraft deal done during UPA regime | TOI | Aug 08 2019

    More worryingly, the CAG has alleged that the American platform does not fully meet the requirements of the Indian Navy. “Owing to capability limitations of radars installed onboard, the aircraft is not able to achieve the envisaged coverage area requirements,” it says

    Specifying details, the report says that while torpedoes were procured as part of the deal, a critical ammunition for anti submarine warfare has not been procured even now. “In the absence of ‘X’ Bombs, the ASW capability of the aircraft could only be partially fulfilled,” it says. It also has observations on the limitations of sonabuoys ordered by the Navy.

    While the CAG observations are scathing, the Indian P8I fleet has seen exceptional service within the Navy and have been deployed on all key missions and exercises. Besides the eight ordered in 2009, India ordered an additional four in 2016 in a $ 1 billion deal.
    Navy’s decision— slammed by the CAG — to go in for 8 more P-8I MR aircraft equipped with the faulty Harpoon-II anti-ship missiles
    Last edited by Double Edge; 08 Sep 19, at 10:32.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Another reply
    It's like talking to Mike Sparks, ie M113 Gavin. The Japanese says the US-2 is SAR. The InN says the US-2 is SAR. When both the seller and the buyer says the US-2 is SAR and here this dumbass is trying to turn the US-2 into something that it is not and neither India nor Japan is going to sink the moneys into turing the US-2 into a bastardized P8i.

    As for COMCASA, rip it out and put in Russian. Not as advance as Western systems but more than enough to overwhelm Chinese and Pakistani systems. It's not like Indian destroyers and SSKs can currently use COMCASA.

  8. #263
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    It's like talking to Mike Sparks, ie M113 Gavin. The Japanese says the US-2 is SAR. The InN says the US-2 is SAR. When both the seller and the buyer says the US-2 is SAR and here this dumbass is trying to turn the US-2 into something that it is not and neither India nor Japan is going to sink the moneys into turing the US-2 into a bastardized P8i.
    His resistance to american gear is conditioned from history.

    Why phase out Tu-142s? Get more of them | May 20 2015

    instead of just one P-8i MR squadron, India could trade in its eight for the newer Tupolevs and buy eight more of the same and constitute a second MR/ASW/AS Tu-142 squadron.

    This is also by way of a precautionary measure. One can never tell when Washington may decide to over-ride contractual obligations and, with legislative prompting, cutoff spares and service support for the Poseidon fleet, and leave India stranded w/o any MR/ASW/AS complement, which will happen if there’s no fallback option. Remember how the Sea King unit was grounded in the aftermath of the 1998 N-tests when sanctions were abruptly imposed because, even though the helicopter was UK-sourced, it had a US component that Washington expressly denied the Indian Navy?

    It is strategic thinking. If one is dependent on imported arms — then best to secure the same genus of item — if it is at all feasible — from rival vendor camps.
    The French & the Russians don't present the same problem. I don't know what the US can do to better reassure here. And in the present time its even less sure.

    It's curious why the service chiefs like American gear given the potential risks inherent with acquiring them. As far as the P8 goes you will hear nothing but praise from the navy.

    As for COMCASA, rip it out and put in Russian. Not as advance as Western systems but more than enough to overwhelm Chinese and Pakistani systems. It's not like Indian destroyers and SSKs can currently use COMCASA.
    Imagine something like this might be done but we will never know more.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Sep 19, at 03:25.

  9. #264
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    Then get the IL-38. I absolutely have no problems with India going non-American but get the right tool for the right job. The TU-14 and the US-2 ain't it.

  10. #265
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You want to achieve the ability to scare the Pakistanis into compliance or steamrolled them, right? Just like what the Americans did right after 11 Sept, either Pakistan allow the Americans to use their airspace to bomb the Taliban or get bombed along with the Taliban.

    To achive what the American military has achieve, you need an American military and that's how much it costs.

    Otherwise, scale back your desires.
    There are some that would question why we are putting so much towards Pakistan when China is the real opponent. Nobody denies China is the real opponent but enacting a shift of resources from west to east will require a mindset change or another defeat.

    Why treat Pakistan, a weak flanking country, as a full-bore security threat when, realistically, it is only a military nuisance ?

    For example

    Hence, rationally speaking, the army’s three strike corps for the Pakistan front absorbing 17%-22% of the annual defence budget should be rationally reconfigured to one composite armour-mechanized corps for contingencies in the west, with the funds and manpower thus freed up switched to form three offensive mountain corps for operations in Tibet to keep the Chinese forces there honest.

    Why is this so difficult for Messrs Modi and Parrikar to understand and act on? As I have been arguing for over two decades, it is not the scarcity of resources but their misuse, owing to a complicit Indian government and military that is the problem.

    What it reveals about Parrikar and the BJP government is that, like Antony and the Congress regime before them, they are not applying their mind, perhaps, because it requires a broader perspective and a threat-reorienting political decision they are fearful of making. China is emerging, finally (whew!), as the consensual main-threat.
    Oh the generals leading those three strike corps will put up a major stink if they see a re-org. They can be overuled. It's the reluctance of the govt to designate China the primary threat that is more worrying.

    Is this what you meant when you said lack of will vis-a-vs China ?

    Would Pakistan feel less threatened if it wasn't staring at three strike corps ? perhaps. Would this then make them less reliant on China ? this is the question.

    Instead of breaking Pakistan which is fantasy, should we not concentrate more on breaking the Pakistan - China Nexus. To wit.

    Breaking the Pakistan-China nexus is an imperative. It requires the Indian government to first seed a conducive political milieu by making certain safe unilateral military moves.

    What the Pakistan Army most fears is India’s three Strike Corps; if this ‘threat’ is denatured, a milieu with enormous peaceful potential can be created. Considering the nuclear overhang and zero probability of the Indian government ever ordering a war of annihilation – which is the only time when these armoured and mechanized formations will fight full tilt – three corps are way in excess of need.

    They can be reconstituted and the resources shifted to form a single composite corps adequate for any conceivable Pakistan contingency.

    The rest of the heavily armoured units can be converted to airborne cavalry, and to light tanks with engines optimized for high-altitude conditions; three offensive mountain corps can thereby be equipped to take the fight to the PLA on the Tibetan Plateau.

    The nuclear backdrop can likewise be changed for the better by India removing its short-range nuclear missiles from forward deployment on the western border and perhaps even getting rid of them altogether, because hinterland-based missiles can reach Pakistani targets with ease.

    These two moves made without demanding matching responses will cost India little in terms of security, establish a modicum of trust, persuade Pakistan of India’s goodwill, and confirm China as the Indian military’s primary concern. It will hasten normalcy in bilateral relations.
    Instead the present configuration is

    A topsy-turvy threat perception has also meant a lopsided Indian military geared to handle Pakistan but incapable of defending well against China, even less of taking the fight to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) on land, air and distant seas; it is also laughably unprepared for future warfare featuring cyber pre-emption, remotely controlled armed drone swarms, robotic weapons systems managed by Artificial Intelligence, space-based weapons platforms, and clean micro-thermonuclear bombs.

    The mismatch between resources and requirements will only grow especially in the face of demands by powerful legacy combat arms, such as the plains/desert-limited armoured and mechanized formations, including a massive self-propelled artillery element, that are irrelevant to 21st Century warfare transitioning to network-centred, robotic, remotely-controlled, long range, precision munitions.

    Then again, the Indian armed forces are pretty antique, as is their thinking and, in that, they are in sync with the government.
    Present mindset

    Indian Army craving to induct artillery guns. All sorts of SPG artillery, ultra light artillery and towed artillery is being peddled by foreign OEMs and there is no end to arguments and requests for their purchase.

    Globally, major powers have started shifting from artillery induction towards guided bombs. So US Army is going ahead with SDB, JDAMS and GPS Guided Rockets in HIMARS and other MLRS systems. They figured out that there is only 6-7 kg of explosive in a 40 kg shell of 155mm artillery, whereas the explosive in a 227 mm HIMARS rocket is double than that. JDAMS and SDB have even more. So not only guided rockets are more efficient, they are also accurate and cheaper to produce while being extremely mobile. Their range is also double than the traditional artillery.

    Taking the cue, even Chinese PLA has not inducted 155mm x52 cal artillery much, even though they are exporting it left, right and center. Chinese PLA is more into rockets, guided and unguided, and has been going through iterative developments of Russian SMERCH 300mm while exporting to Pakistan, Turkey and everyone else.

    Instead of looking towards future of guided shells and rockets, MLRS of longer range and increasing mobility of firepower, Indian Army is looking for the “king of battle” – aka- artillery. Then again, strategic awareness and India are alien to each other.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 10 Sep 19, at 03:45.

  11. #266
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Then get the IL-38. I absolutely have no problems with India going non-American but get the right tool for the right job. The TU-14 and the US-2 ain't it.
    The Albatross void | Mar 30 2017

    A very senior naval person of impeccable integrity and vast and varied experience with whom I had, a few days back, raked up the topic of the imminent de-induction of the Tu-142, responded that left to him he’d have tried and retained this aircraft and its capability. Russia has been offering 22 Tu-142s, from a huge store of this aircraft, possibly kept as war wastage reserve. He called today to say that as he was not an aviator, he had consulted with his naval aviation colleagues and was now persuaded by their argument that it was a damnably difficult plane to upkeep, and the attention it required after each sortie was just too onerous.

    In comparison, the Illyushin-38 for like missions in the ‘Sea stallions’ squadron based in Goa, is a dream, easy to service and maintain, and a delight to operate.

    The trouble is the Il-38 has very little combat range compared to the Tu-142, and also a limited lethal payload capacity — the Sea Eagle anti-ship missile, free fall bombs, and a short-range Air-to-air missile for self-protection versus the Kh-22 anti-ship cruise missile and the Kh-15A short range air-to-surface missile carried by the Tu-142.
    Won't do for patrolling vast expanses of the Indian Ocean.

    Those having anti-Tu 142 views, however, point out that the offer of 22 or howsoever many planes the Indian Navy wants to offtake is because Kremlin has decided that it wants to revive an oceanic anti-submarine warfare capability for itself but lacks the financial resources to set up a factory to produce a new power plant for it.

    And here’s where an Indian buy of these aircraft was supposed to come in handy. It was expected to generate the funds for the Russian Navy to get a newly re-engined fleet of Tu-142s.
    To get more Tu-142's would be helping the Russians. But a PITA to maintain.

    Enter the P8i with its strings and you see there is no best option : )

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Won't do for patrolling vast expanses of the Indian Ocean.
    But it's good enough for the Atlantic and the Pacific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Enter the P8i with its strings and you see there is no best option : )
    A lot better options than the US-2. Even the TU-142s are better than the US-2.

  13. #268
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    But it's good enough for the Atlantic and the Pacific.
    Only the coasts ?

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Only the coasts ?
    We're talking taking on the USN here backed by Japanese, Australian, and NATO naval task forces. If Russian naval C4SISR nodes only operate near the coasts, you might as well invite the USN into your ports. The priority of Russian naval assets is to keep the USN as far from Russian shores as possible.

  15. #270
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    About time..

    National Security Adviser Ajit Doval ready with India’s new military doctrine | HT | Sept 19 2019

    The unclassified part of the report will be made public after the Narendra Modi government or the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) accepts the fundamental document defining the Indian military posture.
    India’s Defence Planning Committee (DPC), headed by National Security Adviser Ajit Doval, is expected to submit the National Security Strategy (NSS), effectively the country’s military doctrine, to the government in October, focusing on future war fronts, the requirement (if any) of naval expeditionary forces, and the projection of comprehensive national power.

    While the defence ministry is tight-lipped about the report, the draft NSS is expected to define India’s position on no first use (of nuclear weapons) in the current context as well as other red lines that could lead to strategic escalation.

    The report is also expected to define the military threat to India in terms of the possible number of fronts. For instance, the Indian military today is readying itself to face threats simultaneously on two fronts, north and the west, in a worst-case scenario. It is this definition that will be used by the defence ministry to decide the quantity of ammunition to be kept in ready stock. As of now, India is prepared with ammunition inventory for a 10-day intensive war.

    The NSS document will also spell out the Indian naval posture in the coming years, including the requirement for an expeditionary force. The Doval committee will also answer whether the Indian Navy requires more aircraft carriers worth billion of dollars or development of air bases in any of the 611 islands under India in the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and Andaman Sea to venture deep across the Indian Ocean or the Persian Gulf, even the South China Sea. For instance, the tri-service Andaman and Nicobar Islands Command could easily project Indian might into the South China Sea with the existing air bases being upgraded and naval bases being equipped with jetties to handle larger warships. The A & N Command sits on the mouth of Malacca Straits with Banda Aceh in Indonesia a mere 163km away as the bird flies from Campbell Bay in Nicobar.

    Although the Indian Navy has been calling itself an expeditionary force in the new millennium on paper, the NSS will define where there is any need to keep Rs 20,000 crore carriers without any distant enemy in near future.

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