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Thread: Indian Defence News & Discussions

  1. #211
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  2. #212
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    So, if I understand correctly, there is no chance of nukes getting tossed at India or Pakistan, by Pakistan or India.
    Depends how much of a death wish we have but otherwise no tactical nukes, no limited nuke war and no controlled nuke escalation.

  3. #213
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  4. #214
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    So they cut out Bde and Div HQs and Bns reports directly to Corps.

    What a lovely disaster in the making.

  5. #215
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Why do you say its a disaster ?

    The idea is faster mobilisation. Self contained units ready to go instead of waiting for components to fall into place.

    20 days battle with some result at the end of it.

    After the Parliament attack, in Op Parakram it took three weeks for strike corps to mobilise.

    The Paks were ready by that time and nothing more could be done.

    Then in 2004, they devised cold start which was 8 IBG's that would attack in different locations with limited objectives.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Sep 19, at 06:20.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Why do you say its a disaster ?
    Information and tasking overload. Battlefield experience and exercises states that one Staff can control optimally 3 sets of actions. 4 if you push it. 5 you will see a degration. Here, you have one HQ controlling 6 to 8 battalions. That's way too much for a single HQ to handle. Better to slip 2 division HQs in there or better yet, three brigade HQs.

    If you need forces asap, get a brigade in there. Don't have to wait for a corps to wind up. A bde can punch through first follow by a division in 72 hours. The rest of the corps can follow through in 3-4 days time.

  7. #217
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    The IBG will encompass 6-8 battalions depending on the terrain where it is deployed and the purpose it is meant for...
    That's what the HT article above says

    Each IBG could have four to six battalions of infantry and armored units, two to three artillery regiments, an engineers unit, an integrated signals unit and dedicated integral logistics (eight thousand to ten thousand troops).

    The Indian Army has been clear however that not every corps, division or brigade will be replaced by an Integrated Battle Group. The terrain, threat perception and options available to the enemy will be critical factors for determining whether or not an IBG will replace the present structure.
    Integrated Battle Groups Are India's Response to Pakistan | NI | Nov 18 2018

    The number seems variable. They will pick one they are comfortable with. This was war gamed summer last year

  8. #218
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    That is still info and task overload. 3 coys to a bn. 3 bns to a bde. 3 bde to a div. 3 div to a corps. 3 corps to an army. What you have here is essentially 2 bdes. Get rid of corps and keep the bde and div HQs.

  9. #219
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That is still info and task overload. 3 coys to a bn. 3 bns to a bde. 3 bde to a div. 3 div to a corps. 3 corps to an army. What you have here is essentially 2 bdes. Get rid of corps and keep the bde and div HQs.
    Yes, IBG is larger than a brigade but smaller than a division.

    Still not getting it.

    3 bns to a bgde means bgde HQ is handling 3 actions

    Same with 3 bdes under one div HQ

    And on up to Corps

    With the IBG it might rise to 4 to 6 bns instead of 3.

    Can't you just have a bigger IBG HQ instead of two Brigade HQ's. Would that be the same thing?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 02 Sep 19, at 18:34.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Yes, IBG is larger than a brigade but smaller than a division.
    You can have a reduced bde (Bde-) or a re-enforced Bde (Bde+).

    What we're talking here is optimal. When do you see degration. At commanding 4 actions, you have acceptable but not optimal C3. At 5, it is unacceptable. At 2 bns per bde, it might be a bit of an overkill but it is not stressing the HQ as it is at 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Can't you just have a bigger IBG HQ instead of two Brigade HQ's. Would that be the same thing?
    You still have one CO. Consider this.You have 5 Bns. 4 are in action. 1 reserve (obvious to any military mind). 2 of those in actions are about to be over-run. 1 is holding. 1 is about to break through but is facing minefields and a determined defence. Where do you concentrate your attention? Be advised that the enemy is not standing still and is rushing forward with his forces.

  11. #221
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    It seems you are saying the previous formations were better. Always remained at 3 formations per HQ.

    Let's stick with IBG. I'm sure there is a simple answer to your question. Number of batallions is likely to vary.

    Instead of 1 in reserve think 2. So if there are 5 or 6 bns to a IBG HQ at most there are 4 in action. With two ready to reinforce if necessary.

    Would that be better.

    Maybe only 3 would be required with 2 in reserve and the last on call for something else or not even present.

    If they have been used to 3 per HQ so far it seems odd they would up the task load.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It seems you are saying the previous formations were better. Always remained at 3 formations per HQ.
    3 is the optimal through hard earned and bloodied experience. As long as you have the man making the decision, this number will not change. In fact, technology here is an hinderance as in providing information overload. For a Corps CO who only needs to see intel that effects Corps level operations, he now has to contend with Bn level intel and he then have to fit it within divisional and corps level picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Let's stick with IBG. I'm sure there is a simple answer to your question. Number of batallions is likely to vary.
    It has been tried. In wartime. You've heard of stories of 10s of 1000s men force reduced to a few 100. At that point, you're thinking survival, not victory. Units that has been so damaged that they could not stand on their own and had to be absorbed into another unit.

    The Chinese also tried it with their brigadization. Failed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Instead of 1 in reserve think 2. So if there are 5 or 6 bns to a IBG HQ at most there are 4 in action. With two ready to reinforce if necessary.
    Reserves are not forces still around with nothing to do. They are the HQ protection force. With 2 Bns, that's wasted manpower which is precisely what this thing is trying to avoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Would that be better.
    No matter which way you cut it, the failure point is that they cut out two levels of command, Bde and Div. That's two levels too many. They should have only cut one, Corps. However, firing Colonels is alot easier than firing Generals.

  13. #223
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Will have to wait for some order of battle info to come out. The news articles don't go into much details. All i heard is faster mobilisation. To date the Paks mobilise faster than us. So maybe this closes the gap some.

    What you pointed out must be well known. They war gamed this IBG thing last summer and were happy with the results and decided to formalise it. Maybe some one can put this question to a journalist to then get some clarity from the generals.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Will have to wait for some order of battle info to come out. The news articles don't go into much details. All i heard is faster mobilisation. To date the Paks mobilise faster than us. So maybe this closes the gap some.
    Oh gee. Pakistan mobilized faster. I wonder why? Could it be that they're living in the battle area? And India has to bring the kitchen sink into Pakistan for the fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    What you pointed out must be well known. They war gamed this IBG thing last summer and were happy with the results and decided to formalise it. Maybe some one can put this question to a journalist to then get some clarity from the generals.
    I know exactly what's happening. Budget doesn't reflect taskings. And the Generals start thinking how to get there the firstest with the mostest and hoping to hell that the combat won't rise above bn level.

    The better alternative is pre-positioned stock but that costs money to set up and maintained.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 03 Sep 19, at 01:41.

  15. #225
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Oh gee. Pakistan mobilized faster. I wonder why? Could it be that they're living in the battle area? And India has to bring the kitchen sink into Pakistan for the fight?
    Hence IBG

    I know exactly what's happening. Budget doesn't reflect taskings. And the Generals start thinking how to get there the firstest with the mostest and hoping to hell that the combat won't rise above bn level.
    Yes, because they are planning for ten days intense war not exceeding 20. Earlier it was 40 days. These days we won't get that far before the world shuts it down. So when those 20 days are up they have to have something to show.

    Now given how limited the deployment will be is 4 to 6 battalions per HQ still a problem ?

    The Bangladesh campaign in '71 was concluded in 2 weeks mainly due to good intel from the Mukti Bahini


    The better alternative is pre-positioned stock but that costs money to set up and maintained.
    Maybe in the future

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