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Thread: Indian Defence News & Discussions

  1. #196
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Of all indian battalions deployed in Kashmir, the Nagas are the only ones that saw a reduction in violence levels in two districts. Why ? Nagas eat dogs and this habit unsettles the locals. Apparently : O
    I've had dog meat only twice in my life. Then my mom bought home a dog, and I fell in love with this beautiful and loyal animal.

    Nukes. No nukes. This <headache>. It's better to keep out of this thread for sometime.
    Last edited by Oracle; 28 Aug 19, at 04:47.
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  2. #197
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I've had dog meat only twice in my life. Then my mom bought home a dog, and I fell in love with this beautiful and loyal animal.
    Do you believe AIM's Naga story though ? i don't quite know what to make of it.

    If the locals are nervous of Nagas it must be because these people are not to be messed with. Nothing to do with eating dogs.

    He's written a paper about troop local interactions but they won't let him release it. Op sec.

    Nukes. No nukes. This <headache>. It's better to keep out of this thread for sometime.
    Haven't we answered that question to your satisfaction yet ?

    What don't you understand

  3. #198
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Do you believe AIM's Naga story though ? i don't quite know what to make of it.

    If the locals are nervous of Nagas it must be because these people are not to be messed with. Nothing to do with eating dogs.

    He's written a paper about troop local interactions but they won't let him release it. Op sec.
    When I was studying for my B.Tech degree, I was friends with 2 Nagas guys who lived in the outskirts of the main town, in a muslim dominated area. The local muslims would in their own local language taunt them as Junglis etc, without knowing that the Nagas understood Bengali. Anyway, I get busy with semester examinations etc, and a year passes by. I get a call in my hostel one day from one of the Nagas guys, saying he has deer meat and a local alcohol (Laopani), which I like. So off I go in the evening. We eat meat and drink and make noise almost all night. Next morning, having worn off the after effects of alcohol, I asked them what if muslims are there by the road to beat us up for making so much noise the previous night.

    Both of them laughed and said nothing will happen. What I didn't notice the previous night was that, they had a small puppy, which they kept for more than a year and fed. In the last one year since I got busy, the puppy grew into an adult dog. Then one fine day, they killed it, skinned and gutted it, cooked it. From the noise coming out of their house, Muslims knew the dog was being killed, but not a single one was ready to go and have a look. From that day local muslims left them alone. For if those 2 Naga guys can kill and eat their own domesticated dog, they can kill a human being and eat it too. Such was the fear of those 2 Naga guys.

    Plus, tribals follow code of honor. They don't fight in groups. They fight alone, man to man. Nagas, Gurkhas are known for their ferocity.

    Here is a picture of the Assam Rifles and Nagaland Police. Assam Rifles also have Nagas serving in it.

    Name:  Assam Rifles & Nagaland Police.jpeg
Views: 34
Size:  259.6 KB

    Haven't we answered that question to your satisfaction yet ?

    What don't you understand
    When answers come in bits and pieces in different threads, it makes me confused. I don't like to remain confused.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

  4. #199
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    When I was studying for my B.Tech degree, I was friends with 2 Nagas guys who lived in the outskirts of the main town, in a muslim dominated area. The local muslims would in their own local language taunt them as Junglis etc, without knowing that the Nagas understood Bengali. Anyway, I get busy with semester examinations etc, and a year passes by. I get a call in my hostel one day from one of the Nagas guys, saying he has deer meat and a local alcohol (Laopani), which I like. So off I go in the evening. We eat meat and drink and make noise almost all night. Next morning, having worn off the after effects of alcohol, I asked them what if muslims are there by the road to beat us up for making so much noise the previous night.
    Deer meat is known as venison. Once you get a taste for game meat this must be a big thing for you : )

    Both of them laughed and said nothing will happen. What I didn't notice the previous night was that, they had a small puppy, which they kept for more than a year and fed. In the last one year since I got busy, the puppy grew into an adult dog. Then one fine day, they killed it, skinned and gutted it, cooked it. From the noise coming out of their house, Muslims knew the dog was being killed, but not a single one was ready to go and have a look. From that day local muslims left them alone. For if those 2 Naga guys can kill and eat their own domesticated dog, they can kill a human being and eat it too. Such was the fear of those 2 Naga guys.
    That is what AIM is getting at and it makes no sense. I don't get the psychology here.

    It's like a veg saying non veg people are naturally violent. Huh?

    How does eating your own domesticated dog lead to canibalism ? non sequitur

    Muslims slaughter goats for their festivals. At times even in the bath tub. Guaranteed to get you into trouble with the neighbours and potentially evicted. Are they not domesticated. What is the difference ?

    Are Chinese to be feared as well now, given they eat anything that has its back to the sun. So humans and presumably other bipeds are off the menu.

    Plus, tribals follow code of honor. They don't fight in groups. They fight alone, man to man. Nagas, Gurkhas are known for their ferocity.
    See, this is a reason to be wary. A reputation for being tough. Though one guy against a gang isn't a fair fight. These locals ain't exactly bashful if they fight with stones against armed pro's and they aren't even out of their teens. I guess that is the only age you think you can do this.


    When answers come in bits and pieces in different threads, it makes me confused. I don't like to remain confused.
    Then say what you don't understand ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Aug 19, at 15:05.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Does this mean Vipin's 45pg paper goes into the bin ? heh

    Wish someone would fire this off to him on twitter. Sure he'd reply.
    Read his CV. I regulate him automatically to the garbage bin. Like all academics now, Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Vipin, Lewis, etc, I will read them for the raw intel and links. Their conclusions I toss out the window, Vipin has zero military experience and has absolutely demonstrated zero understanding of the chain-of-command. Releasing tac nukes ain't a small endevor. You have to know you can trust your Colonels to know and how to do the right thing ... which is another thing. Those Colonels ain't train on how to deploy nukes ... or we see whole batteries on how to mount and fire off nukes.

    The Soviets knew that 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group had nuclear tipped HONEST JOHNs because they saw us training on them.

    Freaking honestly, STOP LISTENING TO POLITICIANS AND WATCH THE MILITARY TRAINING!

  6. #201
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    The day someone actually uses even a tactical nuke is the day everything goes to sh$t. Cause the other side will then feel they have no choice but to use their nukes. Then what?

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    One more thing that I cannot stress enough.

    Just as there is no such thing as tac nukes, limited nuclear war, controlled nuclear escalation, etc, etc, the decision to release a nuke means that you've made a decision to fight a nuclear war. Full stop. Thinking/wishing the other side will not respond with any/all their nukes is pure delusion. Anyone who writes this down on paper is just selling lectures/books and should be considered the clowns that they are.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 28 Aug 19, at 16:04.

  8. #203
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The fact that components of US military aircraft are manufactured in other countries has nothing to do with an inability on the part of the US to manufacture them.

    Companies like Lockheed and Boeing farm out contracts and manufacturing work among other countries that are potential buyers, as a way of enticing them to purchase the planes. From the perspective of allied countries that purchase the aircraft, they get some return on investment for their taxpayer dollar spending, in the form of high paying manufacturing jobs.
    What about development costs. Maybe at the lower level its as you say but what about higher end stuff. Maybe there are companies abroad that have already figured out how to do things. F35 has like parts from 8 to nine thousand companies.

    Why should you be like N.Korea and juche ?

  9. #204
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Deer meat is known as venison. Once you get a taste for game meat this must be a big thing for you : )
    I had venison some months back. Think I told you that. Went for a hunt etc. The other thing is tortoise, damn tasty meat. Tortoise meat is hard, so it's imperative to boil it properly, and garam masala is needed a wee bit more.

    Anteaters are very tasty meat too. My dad, when I was a kid used to buy the tail for it had only meat.

    Buffalo, cooked properly tastes just like mutton.

    Wild hog, very less fat, and more muscle. Damn tasty. I have eaten jackal too when I was a kid, don't remember the taste now.

    Porcupine is tasty meat too. Lots of other meat I'm forgetting. I can talk about meat all day. Meat is like therapy for me. We should have a meat thread in here. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    That is what AIM is getting at and it makes no sense. I don't get the psychology here.

    It's like a veg saying non veg people are naturally violent. Huh?

    How does eating your own domesticated dog lead to canibalism ? non sequitur

    Muslims slaughter goats for their festivals. At times even in the bath tub. Guaranteed to get you into trouble with the neighbours and potentially evicted. Are they not domesticated. What is the difference ?

    Are Chinese to be feared as well now, given they eat anything that has its back to the sun. So humans and presumably other bipeds are off the menu.
    Most non-veg people think meat comes from supermarket shelves. Dogs and Pigs are considered as haram in Islam. Both animals that can sit on their hind legs, this a practising muslim told me.

    The difference I think, is the psychology of fear that tribals espouse. Nobody knows them or their culture that closely, but many do know a century back Nagas were head-hunters. If that's doesn't chill your bones, you need to spend some time with me and my friends in the middle of nowhere, foxes howling, hills surrounding, and people getting drunk and sleeping with a khukri at arm's length. These people don't fear tigers or leopards roaming in the hills, or bear attacks, and they get drunk and sleep peacefully. I had to get drunk, after so many years, to hide my fear, and get some sleep. Pussy me. :D By the time I woke up, they had already killed a rat snake and put it up for breakfast. I witnessed only the skin, and some sounds earlier when the snake was passing by. Poor snake.

    Do you remember the Muslim guy from Assam lynched in Dimapur? Muslims created a lot of hue and cry that they will have revenge. I see no revenge. On the contrary, Nagas keep coming to muslims dominated places, and do business.

    If a community is known for violence, all other communities leaves them alone. That is a FACT. You won't even see Hindus fighting or wanting to fight the Nagas. :D

    See, this is a reason to be wary. A reputation for being tough. Though one guy against a gang isn't a fair fight. These locals ain't exactly bashful if they fight with stones against armed pro's and they aren't even out of their teens. I guess that is the only age you think you can do this.
    We all go through this during our teens. Engaging in anti-social behavior, this is a strict no-no.

    Then say what you don't understand ?
    I don't want to get another headache. I will study some more, then bug you all.
    Last edited by Oracle; 29 Aug 19, at 01:22.
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  10. #205
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    If you see them being moved to the border, that means that the Pakistani NCA has released their nukes to field COs and Dehli better start releasing her nukes.
    Ok, this is where things start getting interesting. The world is watching and the phone lines will be burning. The pressure will become immense on both sides to back off. Other than '71 all our wars got terminated this way. The reason the next one starts is the previous was not allowed to conclude.

    Do you see how this cannot be a tactical move? Anytime you need National Command Authority, it ain't tactical.
    Tactical implies part of a bigger operation. The word i want to use here is 'kill switch'. The moment the Paks move their nukes to the border the war is over.

    The launch order will never come, the mere act of displaying them or releasing them as you say is enough to get the world to act. Assuming its even allowed to get within spitting distance of this point. Pak deterrence is the world not the nukes themselves. India backs off at this point.

    Is this a credible scenario ?

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    One more thing that I cannot stress enough.

    Just as there is no such thing as tac nukes, limited nuclear war, controlled nuclear escalation, etc, etc, the decision to release a nuke means that you've made a decision to fight a nuclear war. Full stop. Thinking/wishing the other side will not respond with any/all their nukes is pure delusion. Anyone who writes this down on paper is just selling lectures/books and should be considered the clowns that they are.
    Bolded bit is why the world will act and decisively. Which ever country launches will ensure their people eat grass for the next half century. So no country will ever launch. There will be no invasion and status quo will hold.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Aug 19, at 18:44.

  11. #206
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    What about development costs. Maybe at the lower level its as you say but what about higher end stuff. Maybe there are companies abroad that have already figured out how to do things. F35 has like parts from 8 to nine thousand companies.

    Why should you be like N.Korea and juche ?
    I'm not sure where you're going with this.

    With the F-35, a few countries have contributed a total of a few billion dollars toward development costs, perhaps 5% or less of the total. To me, these payments toward development costs were nothing more than an earnest payment. Several countries demonstrated their seriousness in acquiring F-35s by making these modest, token payments.

    In return for these insubstantial earnest payments, along with a commitment to order planes, these countries have been thrown a bone in the form of manufacturing subcontracts here and there, perhaps representing 5 to 10% of components manufacture.

    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    US cannot develop a plane by itself anymore.
    Not true.

    In my view, solicitation by the US for other countries to involve themselves in the F-35 program has more to do with reducing the price per unit than any other factor.
    Last edited by Ironduke; 28 Aug 19, at 19:03.
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  12. #207
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    I'm not sure where you're going with this.
    Building the next gen fighter plane is very expensive. Collaborate makes it feasible.

    What comes next after F-22 & F-35. Already on the drawing board.

    Do you try to do it all by yourself or involve partners. There are advantages all around including the ones you mentioned.

    F16 pioneered this way of development

    In a later post I will get into the implications of this for India and arms procurement as per AIM.

    Countries that try to do it all by themselves take longer to get it done if they ever get there at all.

    N.Korea was the second economy after Japan in the 70s.

    Then the digital age starts in the 80s and the information age in the 90s.

    S.Korea takes off and leaves N.Korea far behind.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Aug 19, at 19:16.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Ok, this is where things start getting interesting. The world is watching and the phone lines will be burning. The pressure will become immense on both sides to back off. Other than '71 all our wars got terminated this way. The reason the next one starts is the previous was not allowed to conclude.


    Tactical implies part of a bigger operation. The word i want to use here is 'kill switch'. The moment the Paks move their nukes to the border the war is over.

    The launch order will never come, the mere act of displaying them or releasing them as you say is enough to get the world to act. Assuming its even allowed to get within spitting distance of this point. Pak deterrence is the world not the nukes themselves. India backs off at this point.

    Is this a credible scenario ?
    The scenario already got played out in the Arab-Israeli Wars. Israel readied nukes. USSR threatened intervention. US goes to DEFCON 3. Both Israel and Egypt got told to quit it.

  14. #209
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Vaguely recall the 'foxbats over Dimona' discussion. Wanted to counter with Dingbats over Dimona but don't think i got around to it.

    What i described is the Moeed Yousef scenario. He's written a book how 3rd parties influence hostilities. Though he wasn't anywhere as clear as you are on tactical nukes. He thinks there are more steps to go on the escalation ladder.

    The pressure would be even more concentrated as P3 would not take sides. All would use their influence with either belligerent. US & Russia would act on India. US & China on Pakistan.

    Will have to come up with more scenarios.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Aug 19, at 22:39.

  15. #210
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    So, if I understand correctly, there is no chance of nukes getting tossed at India or Pakistan, by Pakistan or India.
    Last edited by Oracle; 29 Aug 19, at 02:08.
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