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Thread: Jallianwala Bagh tragedy shameful scar on British Indian history: Theresa May

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Jallianwala Bagh tragedy shameful scar on British Indian history: Theresa May

    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Rickshaw Professional Senior Contributor Pedicabby's Avatar
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    Shit happens.

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedicabby View Post
    Shit happens.
    India is not asking Britain to do anything. But Britain can take responsibility for colonial actions, apologize, and move on. The world doesn't revolve around Britain anymore.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    India is not asking Britain to do anything. But Britain can take responsibility for colonial actions, apologize, and move on. The world doesn't revolve around Britain anymore.
    The motivation to do that in the UK is i don't think they will be very welcome in business deals with India otherwise. If UK does Brexit, they have to think global and India is a very interesting market for them. I don't know how they live down a colonial legacy though.

    Shashi Tharoor has really stuck the boot in with his famous speech at Oxford uni back in 2015
    Last edited by Double Edge; 11 Apr 19, at 10:24.

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    The motivation to do that in the UK is i don't think they will be very welcome in business deals with India otherwise. If UK does Brexit, they have will have to think global and India is a very interesting market for them. I don't know how they live down a colonial legacy though.

    Shashi Tharoor has really stuck the boot in with his famous speech at Oxford uni back in 2015
    I don't think many in India cares about what happened a 100 years back. It was evil, but a lot of Indians have moved on. Can't say the same about Sikhs, as I don't know their position vis-a-vis the incident. The Brits were wrong, and if they start issuing apologies, then they have to dole out too many of them. Your point makes sense, I was thinking along this line too. Clever. Earlier it was, divide and rule. Now, apologize and win deals. :D

    Tronic's view would be interesting to hear.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Punjabis & Bongs got divided as a result of partition. Bengal went through a famine. I'd imagine the bitterness would still be there.

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Punjabis & Bongs got divided as a result of partition. Bengal went through a famine. I'd imagine the bitterness would still be there.
    I don't know about other bongs. I don't have any bitterness for what happened 100 or 70+ years back. I am just sad that the country had to be divided along religious lines. And even now, that cancerous wound festers in the name of Pakistan. The current generation of Brits are nice people, they shouldn't be held responsible for what their forefathers did. As far as Bengal being divided, it was a politician in Assam (forgot his name, my old man knows all of these like the back of his hand) who could have asked for some Hindu majority districts to be merged with Assam (they were in Assam's vicinity, border districts), like for example Sylhet, Khulna, Rajshahi etc. But he didn't, regional & communal politics.

    Bengal famine was a Churchill and his war cabinet made disaster. Bad policies such as denial of rice. I remember John Herbert being the architect of denial of rice policy. So many names. You see, people in power should have a heart. I wonder how those people could have slept when millions died of starvation. But, what happened, happened. Digging graves won't raise India's GDP by 2 percentage points, if it did, by all means, howl and scream.

    Then there is, Direct Action Day. Mostly bongs were killed, while many punjabis were also killed. Murdered, raped, burnt. Atrocities, you name it. Who started it? Jinnah flamed it, and Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy started it.

    Because of Gandhi & Nehru, India had to part with 2 of its most fertile regions. India could have kept Tibet as a buffer state, but India did not do nothing and acted deaf, mute, blind and dumb as the CPC started and ended a genocide. 1971 war, India could have bargained chicken neck as well as bordering areas of Bangladesh. What did our politicians do? Zilch. Those assholes didn't even have an iota of vision. Traitors. India today is suffering because of those people.

    I'd imagine there are many Indians who feel absolutely disgusted with what happened in our history and have their story to tell. These are legit and should be heard, and when they speak out the British government should accept the blame, apologize and rest it there.
    Last edited by Oracle; 11 Apr 19, at 13:46.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Don't think they've apologised for the Peters field massacre either..Similar kind of demo. Similar police methods. Most English people haven't even heard of it...



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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    ^ Didn't know about that incident. RIP to all those who died and the wounded too.

    Colonial era is filled with tragic incidents. One of which is below.

    Bengal famine of 1943
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    I think the important thing is to recognise that in history, time and again a small minority decide such actions or lack of action to help alleviate suffering . The many pay the price while the few squander their power.... US AND THEM.

    Those figures are quite staggering and difficult to comprehend, India has suffered more than most... Unfortunately to get anything in life you have to fight or break your back for it. The few don't like their Ivory tower to be disturbed! In the west we have reached a point where many don't realise how their wealth, freedoms and rights came about. Which ultimately gives way to a tide of erosion lead by the few. I guess everything ebbs and flows.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    I don't think many in India cares about what happened a 100 years back. It was evil, but a lot of Indians have moved on. Can't say the same about Sikhs, as I don't know their position vis-a-vis the incident. The Brits were wrong, and if they start issuing apologies, then they have to dole out too many of them. Your point makes sense, I was thinking along this line too. Clever. Earlier it was, divide and rule. Now, apologize and win deals. :D

    Tronic's view would be interesting to hear.
    Charm offensive. Softly softly. DFID has numerous aid projects going in the country.



    So..what weapons do we want from the Brits ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Apr 19, at 02:37.

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    ^ What have the Brits got that the Americans don't? Pardon mate, we'll pay top dollars and buy HQ American stuff.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

    Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain!

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    ^ What have the Brits got that the Americans don't? Pardon mate, we'll pay top dollars and buy HQ American stuff.
    We've got things from the UK in the past. Our first aircraft carrier for instance. Harriers etc.

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Here's a proposal from the Indian right presented in Parliament. No more blame games, he wants to work together. Not financial reparations but soft power reparations. He wants the UK to collaborate with Indian thinkers to help develop a true history of India & India's soft power. This would be seen as a tremendous gift coming back. The history of Britain & India makes the Brits uniquely suited to help India in this regard.



    We regained political independence in 1947

    In the last twenty or so years we're on track to gaining financial power.

    What's still left is intellectual independence.

    The brown sahebs still think like white sahebs and what's worse is its white sahebs from half a century ago. Can't blame the Brits for this, the finger instead is being pointed at Sepoys 2.0. The Indians that kept us back.

    Sepoys 1.0 are those Indians that fought with the Brits against Indians.

    He wants India to build a grand narrative. All great powers have one. But this has been missing in India to date.

    We had the orientalists & Indologists telling the world & Indians about India before independence and after independence got hit in five waves by the Indian left, Marxism then post colonial studies, sub altern studies, post modernism and currently it is neo-orientalism. The people who brought these ideas into India he terms as Sepoys 2.0. Decimates any grand narrative building which the left considers evil.

    He has a few ideas
    - get rid of Aryan invasion theory. Max Muller was responsible for it. Gave the Germans a sense of nationhood but was promoted by Queen Vic as they gave us Sanskrit before, now, its english language & cricket. Civilising India again. Some academics working together can end this nonsense.

    - two basic building blocks of the industrial revolution came from India. Textiles & Steel. Think about it. Brits were so enamoured with Indian textiles they set out to copy them and make them with machines putting a lot of weavers out of work. What the Chinese are doing today. The Brits already did to India in the nineteenth century.

    - 1.3 million Indians fought on the side of the allies in WW1. 75, 000 died and another 70,000 seriously injured. This is more help to Britain in terms of manpower than all other countries combined. Military historians believe without such assistance Britain would likely have lost the war and ended up a German colony. My cursory studies of WW1 revealed a shocking fact. By Nov 1914, a mere three months after outbreak that Britan had lost 85% of her professional fighting force.

    Same stats with WW2. So build a war memorial in England commemorating their sacrifice. Not out of blame, anger guilt. It needs to be pointed out the Brits did build war memorials but they built them in india and they still stand to this day. It's another matter that successive Indian govts neglected them and the purpose of a landmark like India gate in Bombay is largely unknown among the Indian public.

    - the people doing the killing in Jallianwallabagh were Indian sepoys. He likens people against India building a grand narrative as Sepoys 2.0. He wants Indians to stop blaming Brits for and for Brits to acknowledge what went on there. So move forward in a win win way as collaborators working together.

    - he's tired of reports on caste oppression coming from the west, overdone support for christian evangelism the way it is done in India in a perjorative way.

    - Brits missed the boat on yoga. Americans picked it up in the 60s and globalised it. Brits had 200 years in India but missed it : D

    - Americans made use of Indian manpower in their tech companies. Result is Indians wanted to go to the US instead of the UK. Americans benefited.

    What's interesting is you get the impression that the UK post Brexit and India are in a similar mental & psychological space. Brits wanted out of the EU because their grand narrative was getting messed with. UK invests heavily in maintaining its narrative, democracy, royalty, literature etc which translates into tourism and general self-esteem. Indians are looking for a grand narrative. Brits can be good partners.



    This one I will get around to later
    Last edited by Double Edge; 22 Apr 19, at 05:51.

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