Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Jaish terrorists attack CRPF convoy in Kashmir, 40 killed

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • It would be foolish for any Pak to imagine that there is no change in status quo as far as Indian response is concerned regarding terror attacks especially after Uri and Balakot. Future Indian governments, be it BJP or Cngress will be under pressure to respond. So this marks a watershed. The first indication was from USA which said that Indian response would be “understandable” and most western countries follow USA’ line here. Russia ofcourse would wait and watch before taking side and I certainly don’t expect them to be against India’s position. That leave the usual suspect China.

    BTW, it took years for Pak Arm to acknowledge the sacrifices of its soldiers at Kargil and we still don’t know the true casualty count. Pakistan’s record is pretty spotty in that aspect.
    Seek Save Serve Medic

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kuku View Post
      Double Edge hitting your head against a wall multiple times and expecting different results will not happen. I remember 'Agnostic Muslim' fighting the same info-war after Mumbai terrorist attacks and you all discussing the issue with him, as if it would make a difference.
      He has made up his mind, the glorious Pakistani army of pure bred Momins is always true, its flag flies high, victory kisses its feet at all corners with blessings of kudha (o sorry, now its only Allah)
      For me this is just sparring. I also spar with the left & right in India and elsewhere. The difference when going up against the local opposition is they tire after a week or two and the month after come back with another crisis. And so the cycle repeats. I want to be in sync with the govt of the day, ie the incumbent govt anywhere. So i'll go with the incumbent's rhetoric and first understand that before going up against the opposition. Some times you find they are not being truthful but most times its the opposition with fake campaigns. For instance, Rafale & jobs or Mueller investigation in the US.

      On social media things have to conclude within a few days as most lose interest. This is why i don't bother much with social media. On web forums you can track things better and on WAB we're used to going at it for weeks, months and even years : )
      Last edited by Double Edge; 28 Mar 19,, 17:08.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by kuku View Post
        Double Edge hitting your head against a wall multiple times and expecting different results will not happen. I remember 'Agnostic Muslim' fighting the same info-war after Mumbai terrorist attacks and you all discussing the issue with him, as if it would make a difference.
        He has made up his mind, the glorious Pakistani army of pure bred Momins is always true, its flag flies high, victory kisses its feet at all corners with blessings of kudha (o sorry, now its only Allah)

        The interesting that I observed about Paks is that they would never acknowledge any failure WRT India.
        Seek Save Serve Medic

        Comment


        • Originally posted by kuku View Post
          Double Edge hitting your head against a wall multiple times and expecting different results will not happen. I remember 'Agnostic Muslim' fighting the same info-war after Mumbai terrorist attacks and you all discussing the issue with him, as if it would make a difference.
          He has made up his mind, the glorious Pakistani army of pure bred Momins is always true, its flag flies high, victory kisses its feet at all corners with blessings of kudha (o sorry, now its only Allah)
          I'm not sure what you expect from a discussion on a forum. He's presenting his point of view and I am mine. Both of us are trying to support our arguments with publicly available evidence/facts. I don't believe the Indian claims of casualties at Balakot or downing of an F-16 are supported by existing evidence.

          With respect to LeT or JeM, I don't see how I can be any clearer than I already have been, that ALL non-state groups with militant wings need to be neutralized in Pakistan. Where he and I differ is on the time frame and whether the Pakistani military and government are on board with what I have argued.
          Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
          https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
            The interesting that I observed about Paks is that they would never acknowledge any failure WRT India.
            That's the reason Chris Fair's book is called 'fighting to the end'.

            To make peace is seen as acquiescence or worse, surrender

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
              Then , according to you, what is the 'correct place'? You do realize how absurd your defence sounds don't you? Every independent analysis and all the independent reporting on Balakot is wrong, but Indian reporting (without any evidence to support it) is accurate. You are also ignoring the points raised in the latest satellite imagery analysis - there are no visible ingress points in the roof of any of the structures. Regardless of small you want to claim the explosives as being, there would still be ingress points visible in the roofs. They aren't there. Additionally, the craters themselves line up with the buildings, all at a similar distance from them pointing to a similar targeting error.
              Not a defense more of a correction. Ruser doesn't know where the targets were and when repeatedly pointed out in his twitter post remains silent. So he's sticking to his guns and going with his original post otherwise he will be contradicting his earlier post ? not professional. IAF isn't going to share info with foreign sources. More might appear closer to the election. A month after i think Balakote is already forgotten in the minds of the Indian public.

              Vishnu Som is a defense correspondent for NDTV, he's using colonel Vinay Bhat's article from the print. The exact locations have to be found from Bhat. Only a few people were shown evidence so Bhat has tried to reproduce that using commercial open source imagery.

              Complicating factors here is access required to sateliite imagery that is updated shortly after the attack. Google is useless so its harder for the layperson.

              Next bit is the Pak military is going to repair those roofs so there will be no evidence remaining. There was cloud cover for a couple of days after as well. So images of the roofs taken after the attack could very well show no damage if they weren't taken in time.

              The top of the hill remains off limits to this date. Why ?

              What the world thinks is unimportant. Only people that matter are the Pak military & the JeM. What they think. That will become evident in the following weeks & months. How much of a setback for JeM is this strike ? only way to answer that is time to the next spectacular strike by JeM. How long will that be ? wait and see.

              I heard an analyst say JeM have been set back 3-5 years as a result of this strike caveat is nobody knows. Still, this is one hell of a prediction. Why ?

              - contrary to what people think these people don't grow on trees. These people were not expendable, they are highly trained crack troops.
              - Lots of money is spent on training these people which is now lost. More importantly the trainers have been killed.
              - so trainers dead, accumulated institutional knowledge of terrorism killed, accumulated institutional contacts with terrorists & terrorist sympathising familes to hide terrorists across the border also gone
              - cadets killed. So now there is a gap in jihadis from this tanzeem

              Given a choice between an Abottabad style op to eliminate Masood Azhar, i will vote each time, every time for a Balakote like op given the expected outcome. Very well conceived, planned & executed.

              Now we don't get to kick back and put our boots up and declare victory, this will be ongoing, mowing the grass as they say. From time to time.


              I already addressed that in my response to antimony earlier. Banned from Pakistan, known Baloch terrorist sympathizer, had no first hand information to offer and quoted 'anonymous sources' as is usual. Contrast this with multiple international and local media organizations reporting first hand from the ground in Balakot, separately interviewing locals and getting the same answers, all contradicting this 'Italian journalist' and Indian claims.

              The fact remains that you have no evidence to support any of the Indian claims, while there is overwhelming evidence supporting the Pakistani claims.
              Well from what i've seen getting declared PNG in Pakistan means you are not following the army's line. The consequences for a local are more ominous. There was an article in Dawn magazine by a journalist called Zulfiqar Ali in 2004 that actually documented what went on inside these camps. Oh, that was the last article he ever wrote. His journalism career was over. There was another Pak journalist in 2010, Shehzad i think who wrote for the Asian times who was found dead.

              So what if Franscesca is banned, she still has her networks. A figure of 35-40 isn't as incredible as 300 odd is it. So plausible. I don't know if its correct but i cannot off hand flat out declare it wrong.

              That's your view - the way I see it, the demonstration was absolutely necessary for both domestic political reasons and foreign signalling.
              Right, so this bit is important. Domestic political reasons aka management of people for political purposes. How much weight do you assign to the former over the latter ?

              If you are throughly cynical, you assign the most weight to the former and this applies on the Indian side too. To hell with anything else. Fake it even . Domestic first. Put up a show that is somewhat convincing, assuages people's emotions. Done. Move on to the next crisis.


              Another local terrorist attack in J&K (again, no evidence exists that Pulwama was tangibly supported by JeM or Pakistan) is likely not going to be 'broadcast' before it occurs, so unless India shares preemptive evidence with Pakistan and the world, your argument that 'the pressure will be on Pakistan' makes no sense.
              As for Pulwama supported by JeM, the UN presidential statement condemning the attack on the CRPF in J&K states 'as claimed by JeM'. So the world accepts JeM was responsible.

              Deducing Pak military involvement isn't hard. It will generally be well executed relatively speaking compared to the tens of lower skill, run of the mill incidents that occur. Some attacks just stand out way above the norm meaning there was a professional network involved.

              No way we've seen an attack like Pulwama. Of that magnitude or a suicide bomber. Last time a suicide bomber happened was over ten years back.

              What will likely occur is that if another terrorist/militant attack occurs in J&K, the pressure will be on India to not respond the way it did in Balakot because Pakistan has clearly demonstrated that it will not hold back and will retaliate and therefore escalate. So the first step in escalation, that the world can apply pressure to prevent, will be an Indian military response against Pakistan, because a Pakistani retaliation to an Indian military strike is now guaranteed.
              The question to be asked is why wasn't that the case after Pulwama or even Uri ? Nobody condemned the strike nor said to exercise restraint. The only reason the pilot was returned in 48h is because pressure was applied on Pakistan. So the world was with India on this one and is also hinting at the same time that the next time it happens to not go in guns blazing and that the world will help India here. I can see how the world has been helpful here in many ways. That defuses things. But ultimately it is India's call to either do another Balakote (any less won't be acceptable domestically) or more serious than Balakote. So the world will put pressure not on India but now on Pakistan to de-escalate as Indian self restraint is over. Things cannot continue as before. As India has shifted the goal posts the world looks at the region differently. So the onus is now on Pakistan & Pakistan's friends including China to bring down the tension in the region.

              Terrorism isn't going to stop as a result of Balakote, everybody knows another attack will come and then a more spectacular one. That is what the world is preparing for now.

              That is the doctrinal shift that has occurred here which you haven't grasped yet. Post Uri, if India sees preparations for a major terrorist strike on India taking place in Pakistan, even if it is on sovereign Pakistan territory distinguishing it from Po J&K that India reserves the right to take kinetic action. There will be no evidence shared beforehand. Pre-emptive non-military strike.

              And as posted earlier, see Katju's video, the first step on the escalation ladder is no longer the Indian response to a terrorist incident but the terrorist incident itself. So better for Pakistan that no footprints lead back there.

              See costs imposed on Pakistan as a result of this doctrinal shift.

              Why did JeM put out that video ? is there a competition between militants to attack India now.

              Bruce Riedel said in 2013 that should another 26/11 occur that one could not expect India to just take it on the chin and do nothing. I didn't understand why he said that at the time but i've since understood it means India won't care anymore about world opinion and will do what it takes. That prediction was true. However there is a world of difference between mobilising half the army on the border and Balakote.

              Listening to Ram Madhav talk about his J&k policy he said don't talk to me about escalation, talk to me about terrorism. So India isn't bothered if Pakistan retaliates as its been factored in.

              To date Imran hasn't said a word about that. Even when i see op-ed's in Dawn by normally sane people there is concern but no talk about terrorism. Every one is supporting the state. The one time when a disagreement was published in dawn soon after the surgical strike about a civil - military disagreement where Nawaz back in 2016 questioned the terrorism policy, what happened ?

              Cyril Almeida got put on a no fly list for months. So there is swift punishment for deviations. Some views may just not be acceptable to publish. So there is in effect a self censorship in place.

              Pakistan has indicated the SU 30 fell on the Indian side, so we wouldn't have the wreck or parts.
              yeah right and so is the pilot. This has somehow been swept under the carpet by the Indian govt as well as media ?

              Kill credits go to PAF squadron leader Hassan Siddiqui for two kills, SU30 & Mig 21. Quite the haul for a morning's work at the office.

              Really? The term 'drop tank' should put to rest this conspiracy theory as well, as in think about the word 'drop'. These are typically released before engagements occur.
              It wasn't dropped, still attached to the wreckage which is quickly & discretely carted away by the military. They are making it seem as its Indian. We don't use drop tanks as large in the IAF according to that video.

              I already pointed out to you that the F-16's were on the Pakistani side providing support. No F-16's were used in the actual bombing within IOK, allowing Pakistan to claim 'defensive use' to the US. The ISPR statement is correct in that context. And keep in mind the AMRAAM range.
              I see so it was JF-17's then that did the bombing. The Indian side is saying F16's did cross the LoC

              Fog of war. There were reports of multiple Indian pilots ejecting (one from the Mig and 2 from the Su 30). Only one landed in Pakistan and Abhinandan was taken to CMH for treatment and monitoring.
              Three pilots ejected as can be seen in the video. Maybe we will find out in time.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 29 Mar 19,, 14:28.

              Comment


              • He says terrorist groups are being dismantled. What is being done now in this regard never happened before in Pakistan. Thought Zaradari had to do more with LeT but what do i know.



                Interviewer was very to the point and sharp.

                He's not heard of Pak spouses protesting that their wives are locked up in Xianjiang. Does not appear in the Pak press. Never heard of it. That place Xianjiang i think he means.

                This guy wanted to rally people against some cartoons but will not say anything about Muslims in China.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 29 Mar 19,, 14:10.

                Comment


                • Now the Americans are trying to get him black listed. When i saw that yesterday i wondered if it was an older post.

                  No, its another attempt but in a different way.

                  Instead of using the sanctions committee, it was introduced by the US as a resolution at the UNSC.

                  1267 sanctions committee is a closed door affair, we don't get to hear reasons behind "technical hold" or why China needs more time to study the matter.

                  UNSC resolution is not a closed door affair

                  China isn't pleased because the Americans have now put them on the spot: D

                  Will China go along with the rest of the world or veto and thereby support a terrorist org

                  Either way is a lose lose for China

                  Different ball game now

                  There is no indication as to when this vote will be taken.

                  It will be non binding as this resolution won't come under Article VII like the 1267 sanctions which is mandatory for all countries.

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	china hypocrisy.JPG
Views:	2
Size:	53.0 KB
ID:	1477958

                  Good job exposing Pak hypocrisy of supporting muslims everywhere but in China and China's hypocrisy of repressing its muslims on the pretext of becoming potential future terrorists but still defending a known active terrorist that too on the global stage.
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 29 Mar 19,, 15:44.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post

                    With respect to LeT or JeM, I don't see how I can be any clearer than I already have been, that ALL non-state groups with militant wings need to be neutralized in Pakistan. Where he and I differ is on the time frame and whether the Pakistani military and government are on board with what I have argued.
                    To be precise, you said that they will be dismantled at Pakistan's own time.

                    That is unacceptable. Expect more trees and rocks (your narrative, not mine) to be bombed if another Pulwama occurs. I expect Pakistan will respond with more non-F16s and capture more "Israeli pilots". You know, I think this is a good way to get rid of those old Mig-21s and F-16s.
                    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                    Comment


                    • Agnostic Muslim,

                      You have been arguing for over 10 years that Anti India groups are not related to Pakistani Establishment, and are a phase in Pakistan, which will end.

                      They have been around for 3 decades (and more in some cases), and to everyone it is clear that they are proxies of Pakistan.
                      Pakistan The sort of proof Pakistan is asking for is impossible outside of a on ground criminal investigation which will never happen (as the accused is in charge of investigating his/her charges, there is a saying for this, Qatil ki ye daleel munsif nay maan lee, Maqtul khud gira thaa khanjar ki nok par ).

                      There is a genuine animosity between a certain section of Indian population against Pakistan. However the System in India (Politicians, Administrative Officers, Businessmen) are too busy robbing the Indian population blind, for them the greatest threat is the empowerment of the least vulnerable people (Dalit, Women, Poor, worst if you are all three), which the reason there is no actual representation of the three in Indian politics, administration or business, and why there are so many obstacles against them.

                      The defence procurement industry in India does not hold the sway that actual businessmen do, and for them peace is much better, they have for an example had close relations with Pakistani system also (the same triade, with military added to it).

                      The defence related votes are too small.

                      Hindu Right, doesn’t need Pakistan to sustain its feeding force, there are enough Muslims in India for that, the only result of Pakistan keeping this us is to supplement their feed, not to cause it.

                      I have told you this before, all it takes for peace between India and Pakistan is that Pakistan stops the Anti India activities emanating from its soil, at that moment the whole charade collapses and there is peace forever between the two nations.

                      From the last few decades It is clear that Pakistan will not stop this, or that it is making an effort to stop it.

                      Let’s not peddle the same government standard issue propaganda at each other and call it a discussion for the sake of it.

                      We are stuck in a bubble.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        On web forums you can track things better and on WAB we're used to going at it for weeks, months and even years : )
                        A Decade in this case.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 667medic View Post
                          The interesting that I observed about Paks is that they would never acknowledge any failure WRT India.
                          The ability to acknowledge failure is the only way to improve.

                          Pakistan being a military run establishment will never acknowledge weakness.

                          Given that nothing is going to change, and that India can use such limited military actions to pressurize Pakistan, the Indian leadership needs to realize that we need a huge advantage in military equipment required for such limited and intense actions, currently we seem to be almost on par.
                          Last edited by kuku; 29 Mar 19,, 12:22. Reason: reviewed

                          Comment


                          • I was wrong earlier. India needs to open up its economy more, try and contain Chinese dominance in global markets, and spend 5% of its GDP on defense, for the next 2 decades. Wishful thinking, as India is run by civilians unlike Military Inc of Pakistan, but if that happens, we can use costly missiles like the Brahmos for taking out a ragtag bunch of mule riding Pakistani islamic jihadi terrorists and not worry about costs or escalation. Leave Pakistan so far behind that they start investing their blood money on growing and eating grass. Pay your taxes honestly, folks, and urge others to do the same.
                            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                              IAF isn't going to share info with foreign sources.

                              Next bit is the Pak military is going to repair those roofs so there will be no evidence remaining. There was cloud cover for a couple of days after as well.
                              The top of the hill remains off limits to this date. Why ?

                              What the world thinks is unimportant. Only people that matter are the Pak military & the JeM. What they think. That will become evident in the following weeks & months. How much of a setback for JeM is this strike ? only way to answer that is time to the next spectacular strike by JeM. How long will that be ? wait and see.

                              Three pilots ejected as can be seen in the video. Maybe we will find out in time.
                              IAF, IA, IN will not release anything without a deep and careful analysis of several aspects carried out by them and approved by MoD. GoI will not be able to pressurize them into releasing these.

                              GoI may be able to release the images they have through the SAR imaging satellites which can give day/night all weather imaging, also India and Israel have similar SAR imaging satellite H/W and from what i remember they share data with each other, so more assets going across the area every day.

                              In 2 days a motivated military service can do a million things, clearing ground, hiding bodies, putting up new roofs is a very easy task.
                              But 300 bodies are a lot, someone would notice, something will slip out. Pakistan hid Kargil losses for a long time, they do not really care for their soldiers, forget their pet terrorists. I remember Kasabs neighbors denied his and his families existence.

                              Pakistan has lost a lot more soldiers in Kargil than the terrorists they lost in this strike, i think Pakistan accepts these losses and moves on to rebuild, these types of strikes however raise the cost and are much better than sitting tight.

                              Apart from the obvious (Pakistani military being power grabbing militants), You can also gauge the difference between the two military forces from the response to the events.
                              Pakistani military kept on flip flopping with planes and pilots shot down and arrested.
                              Indian military stated that they will respond when they have accurate information to share, and did so.

                              Pakistani military and their subjects will never be able to understand how difficult it is for the Indian Air Force to have a multi million dollar airplane missing from service for the air force, and the repercussions if such information is found out. Because for them military is the law.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                                To be precise, you said that they will be dismantled at Pakistan's own time.

                                That is unacceptable. Expect more trees and rocks (your narrative, not mine) to be bombed if another Pulwama occurs. I expect Pakistan will respond with more non-F16s and capture more "Israeli pilots". You know, I think this is a good way to get rid of those old Mig-21s and F-16s.
                                Whether the Pakistani timeline is unacceptable for India isn't really our concern. Pakistan has to act in a manner that does not impact the domestic security situation negatively, and that will be the overriding concern, not what India thinks.

                                With respect to 'more trees, rocks and crows' & the 'F-16's', that's not just the Pakistani narrative, that is the global narrative minus India. All independent reporting, coverage and evidence contradicts the Indian claims.
                                Last edited by Agnostic Muslim; 29 Mar 19,, 16:40.
                                Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah
                                https://twitter.com/AgnosticMuslim

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X