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Jaish terrorists attack CRPF convoy in Kashmir, 40 killed

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  • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
    Right, sure, "classified", as in doctored or accompanied by speculation to bolster the Indian POV.

    Independent satellite imagery analysis shows no holes, no destruction, no damage. It's a sign of how badly the Indian government has brainwashed its populace that people are still clinging to ridiculous claims about 'destruction and casualties at Balakot'.

    The same thing was pointed out about the 2016 'surgical strikes', that whatever occurred was nothing beyond what normally happens between the 2 armies (small scale cross border raids), and there was no evidence provided then either, with the Pakistani Army taking local and foreign journalists to the alleged site of the strikes.

    So when it comes to actually providing credible evidence to back up claims, whether it's land based surgical strikes in 2016, IAF strikes in 2019, or claims of shooting down a Pakistani F-16, the Indian government score is zero right now.

    Hiding behind, "a handful of Indian journalists were shown classified satellite imagery' might be enough to convince the Modi Bakhts who simply can't comprehend failing against Pakistan, but it isn't convincing almost anyone else in the rest of the world.
    The terrorists cannot target Pakistan if Pakistan in the first place does not admit these strikes took place. I find this an acceptable policy by GOP. In effect you look the other way each time a raid or strike occurs. In doing so you are immediately defusing a potentially larger conflagration and you have plausible deniability via a vis the terrorists. Even put up some token resistance if you must.

    If you cannot handle these people out of fear of retribution then we will take care of them. Work with us.

    The aim of these strikes was twofold for the sake of security personel morale and to show the terrorists they aren't safe. In effect terrorise the terrorist.

    It's now clear why Masood Azhar has police protection. He's afraid and that is good.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Mar 19,, 20:12.

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    • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
      The unofficial Pakistani position is that the pilots were from either an Indian Mirage 2000 or Sukhoi, and landed in India which is why they weren't captured by Pakistani forces.
      The IAF wouldn't be able to hide the fact it lost a second bird. It would be very difficult to keep it secret if any wreckage fell in J&K. There are enough people there to bring attention to it.

      There is absolutely zero evidence that a Pakistani F-16 was shot down.
      Plane was hit at high altitude. So the parts are strewn over a wide area. It's in PO J&K like the Mig 21.

      Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
      The F-16's did not cross the LoC. They were providing support for the strike package from the Pakistani side. The

      There was no intent to inflict actual damage because no damage was inflicted on the Pakistani side.
      Hard to tell, the second article in post #352 believes ...

      The PAF package is likely to have comprised eight F-16s (four carrying laser-guided bombs [LGBs] and the rest in the air defence sweep role). This formed the northern and more potent element of the force and was most probably headed for military targets in the Naushera sector.

      The southern strike package comprised Mirage 5 strike aircraft and JF-17s providing top cover and were likely headed towards the 16 Corps HQ at Nagrota, a few km north of Jammu, or could have been a decoy package just as the Su-30MKI package was two days earlier when it was headed towards Bahawalpur.

      The older Mirage-IIIs were possibly on standby. Supporting this large force were to 2 Saab AWACS—one positioned between Sargodha and Sialkot—and the other around Islamabad with a dual tasking of supporting the Northern package and controlling air defence of the capital area.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 21 Mar 19,, 21:21.

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      • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
        Some Pakistanis have put together a compilation of images showing:
        1. Missile fragments still attached to one of the wings of the Mig-21 showing that one R73 and one R-77 were not launched

        2. Images showing a broken R-73 and R-77 (neither appears to have detonated).

        That would make 2 R-73's and 2-R-77's, plus the centerline fuel tank (which was also recovered as seen in various images). And I believe that's a full load-out of the Mig-21. So Abhinandan couldn't have possibly shot down anything since it doesn't appear he fired any of his missiles.
        Refer here

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        • I remember on this the narrative that no Pakistani's were involved in Kargil action and Mumbai Attacks, until it became impossible to deny.
          NLI soldiers did not even exist till they suddenly died in Kargil years after the conflict, and till date they show less than half the dead bodies Indian's handled in Kargil.
          Kasab's own village was denying he or his family were their neighbors, till denying it became Impossible.

          The lock down of Balakot area and the guided tour to all friendly journalists is a clear indication of what happened there.

          Arguing with this narrative is useless.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            US asks Pakistan to act against terrorists, says another attack on India will be ‘extremely problematic’ | PTI | Mar 21 2019

            This is what Katju was saying, post balakote the first step of the escalation ladder starts with the terrorist attack instead of India's reaction

            So instead of Pakistan using the world to deter us after an attack, now the world is deterring them to ensure we don't get attacked
            This does not make a difference to PA, they have the ability to hit India through their proxies. Whenever required they can escalate things with India through these agencies, while maintaining deniability.
            You could make them a global outcast, like Sadaam or Gadaffi, you will only help them consolidate their power.
            They are the system is Pakistan, just like the Neta-Babu-Businessman has been the system in India.
            I do not see how dead members of LeT, JeM, HM etc. matter to them, for the system they seem to be better dead fighting Indian's than Pakistani's.

            As for the Indian System, it is apparent that they do not want to see any value in a compromise on the contentions to achieve peace.

            In my opinion the situation will remain as it is, stagnant till something more revolutionary happens.


            The people of the two nations

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kuku View Post
              As for the Indian System, it is apparent that they do not want to see any value in a compromise on the contentions to achieve peace.

              In my opinion the situation will remain as it is, stagnant till something more revolutionary happens.


              The people of the two nations
              Talks and terrorism don't go together. That policy was put in place after 26/11. Why should we be the ones doing any compromising ?

              Comment


              • Interesting bit of trivia here from Haqqani. Reason hafez Saeed and three others got designated is because Pakistan supported it. Why ? they were afraid of retaliation

                Alliance with Pakistan matters more to China than terrorism | The Print | Mar 22 2019

                For years China had put a similar hold on the designation as terrorists of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) founder Hafiz Saeed and his Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) by the UN Security Council. In the aftermath of the November 26/11 Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008, China withdrew its hold at the urging of Pakistan’s then civilian government.

                Saeed and three other JuD leaders considered masterminds or financiers of the Mumbai attacks were subjected to UN sanctions in December 2008 after Pakistan asked the Chinese to drop its ‘technical hold’ on their designation as terrorists. At that time, Pakistan’s civilian leaders who succeeded Musharraf’s military dictatorship felt they needed to take serious action to avoid retribution in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks.
                So what is the difference now with Azhar

                Now, attitudes in Islamabad have changed. The civilian government led by Imran Khan is unwilling to go beyond lip service over action against terrorists operating in Afghanistan or India. Pakistan’s military feels it has leverage once again as facilitator of US talks with the Taliban. There is neither commitment nor incentive for Pakistan to ask China to stop blocking UN sanctions against Pakistan-based terrorists.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 24 Mar 19,, 12:50.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Agnostic Muslim View Post
                  Right, sure, "classified", as in doctored or accompanied by speculation to bolster the Indian POV.

                  Independent satellite imagery analysis shows no holes, no destruction, no damage. It's a sign of how badly the Indian government has brainwashed its populace that people are still clinging to ridiculous claims about 'destruction and casualties at Balakot'.

                  The same thing was pointed out about the 2016 'surgical strikes', that whatever occurred was nothing beyond what normally happens between the 2 armies (small scale cross border raids), and there was no evidence provided then either, with the Pakistani Army taking local and foreign journalists to the alleged site of the strikes.

                  So when it comes to actually providing credible evidence to back up claims, whether it's land based surgical strikes in 2016, IAF strikes in 2019, or claims of shooting down a Pakistani F-16, the Indian government score is zero right now.

                  Hiding behind, "a handful of Indian journalists were shown classified satellite imagery' might be enough to convince the Modi Bakhts who simply can't comprehend failing against Pakistan, but it isn't convincing almost anyone else in the rest of the world.
                  Hey AM, long time no see, how are you brother?

                  First of all, handling of the Balakot attacks by Indian poltis and journos has been appalling. This just shows how much of a 3rd world country our policymaking realm still is. Of course, Pakistan is in a worse state, but that is none of my concern.

                  I would leave you with a few facts.

                  1. India struck inside Pakistan's territory, crossing the IB. The PAF were not able to intercept the IAF. This has been recognized by the ISPR and across all levels of the Pakistani establishment, including the floor of the National Assembly. You are free to claim that this is trivial, but we both know otherwise. The numbers don't matter, what matters is that India is able to strike deep inside Pakistan. After that, whether they bomb trees or kill terrorits is really secondary. If you dispute that, then I guess India's aerial aggression doesn't bother you much

                  2. The independent Italian Journalist Francesa Marino has reported that at the site around 35 bodies were carries away. Remember, independent and Italian (which is nearly the same as Pakistan in the eyes of bhakts)

                  3. You claim that the 2nd fighter was an Indian plan that crashed on the Indian side, yet your media is claiming that it was actually an Israeli pilot who was shot down. Why this discrepancy?
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAGtxdqCOKM
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrciYgHyRaA

                  4. This video by Maulan Ammar, who seems butthurt and is railing about conducting Jihad in resposne to enemy cross broder aggression and bombings. I trust you understand Urdu. Start listing from 1:10
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a06Z0CfD7pI

                  After all that, Indians at large remain convinced of the following:
                  1. They have avenged Pulwama
                  2. They have shot down a Pakistani plane and the pilot did not even survive
                  3. India's international strength and staure forced Pakistan to hand over the Indian pilot earlier than necessary

                  To top it all, MBS (who apparently considers himself Pakistan's safeer), morphed into Modi's brother when he went to Delhi.

                  All in all, not a win for Pakistan. I am sure inside Pakistan the feeling was jubiliant when the IAF plane was shot down, but the mood changed to "mixed feelings once he was retuned and many have caled it a "lost opportunity". I actually agree with them.

                  On the other hand, Modi did reap the dividends and many Indians now acknowledge that finally there is a "strong" leader, in the veins of Patel and Indira Gandhi. Pakistan, to the eyes of the average Indian, seems more of a pushover than before. If Modi survives, and I expect he will, expect more "surgical strikes".
                  Last edited by antimony; 25 Mar 19,, 06:57.
                  "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                    1. India struck inside Pakistan's territory, crossing the IB. The PAF were not able to intercept the IAF. This has been recognized by the ISPR and across all levels of the Pakistani establishment, including the floor of the National Assembly. You are free to claim this is trival, but we both know otherwise. The numbers don't matter, what matters is that India is able to strike deep inside Pakistan. After that, whether they bomb trees or kill terrorits is really secondary. If you dispute that, then I guess India's aerial aggression doesn't bother you much
                    Point defence. In fact, outside of NATO, I don't know anyone who spends as much time and money on area defence and even NATO, this is regulated to AWACS most of the time instead of CAP.

                    So, the point about bombing rocks and trees isn't moot. The PAF's first response is to defend their points before mounting an intercept mission. I could be wrong but I don't think the PAF flies AWACS missions 24/7 which leaves their coverage with ground based radar. Obviously, there are blind spots but those blind spots lead to trees and rocks instead of a point target.

                    Obviously, these are very mission specific parameters but if the Indians are right about Pakistani military establishment involvement, then this begs the question, why are not the Indian targets under Pakistani radar coverage?
                    Chimo

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                      3. You claim that the 2nd fighter was an Indian plan that crashed on the Indian side, yet your media is claiming that it was actually an Israeli pilot who was shot down. Why this discrepancy?
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAGtxdqCOKM
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrciYgHyRaA
                      Here's a thought : )

                      Why wasn't the PAF pilot that downed the Mig celebrated as a hero in Pakistan ?

                      We welcomed ours back in that light

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Point defence. In fact, outside of NATO, I don't know anyone who spends as much time and money on area defence and even NATO, this is regulated to AWACS most of the time instead of CAP.

                        So, the point about bombing rocks and trees isn't moot. The PAF's first response is to defend their points before mounting an intercept mission. I could be wrong but I don't think the PAF flies AWACS missions 24/7 which leaves their coverage with ground based radar. Obviously, there are blind spots but those blind spots lead to trees and rocks instead of a point target.
                        If that is what you say it is, then it must be it. It makes even more sense since as per the PAF, the IAF mounted some distraction misions aong with the main attack on Balakot.

                        However, this is not the narrative being given by the establishment to the Pakistani public. Their narrative is that the PAF chased the Indians away and the IAF fighterns in a hurry drooped their bombs which hit trees and rocks. In fact, your explanation, while logical to someone who understands air defence is an extremely damaging admission to a public that expects "our one to their ten".

                        The PAF CANNOT admit that a single sq. inch of Pakistani airspace is vulnerable to IAF attack.

                        Originally posted by WABs_OOE View Post
                        Obviously, these are very mission specific parameters but if the Indians are right about Pakistani military establishment involvement, then this begs the question, why are not the Indian targets under Pakistani radar coverage?
                        Now we are veering into speculation. So far, even during Kargil, the IAF did not cross the LOC, much less the IB. I would expect targets within POK to be covered by AWACS, but probably not those inside the IB.
                        Last edited by antimony; 25 Mar 19,, 06:24.
                        "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          Here's a thought : )

                          Why wasn't the PAF pilot that downed the Mig celebrated as a hero in Pakistan ?

                          We welcomed ours back in that light
                          India had no choice in the matter. The IAF pilot was captured so the only thing to do was accept with grace, which btw, the Indian public, politicians, and media failed at abjectly by making the whole Balakot incident and aftermath a bloody circus. Abhinandan showed more dignity in the worst of his captivity than the entire nation, the Indian political establishment and the media put together.

                          About the "PAF pilot", the Pakistani Urdu media is claiming (especially that bloated gasbag Zafar Hilaly) that the other pilot was Israeli. Once he was captured, America put pressure on Pakistan not to do a public media circus like they did with Abhinandan. Another section of the Urdu media claimed that the pilot was flying a Sukhoi (wtf???) and Russia put pressure on both India and Pakistan not to make public that their vaunted Sukhois can be shot down. These guys apparently do not smoke weed, so how do they get so high ???

                          BTW, I do not expect an answer back from AM. In the past he has never come back once I asked him questions with undisputable facts (like how does OBL stay undetected in a compound inside a cantonment area, where property tax is assessed by the cantonment board?)
                          Last edited by antimony; 25 Mar 19,, 06:44.
                          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                            Talks and terrorism don't go together. That policy was put in place after 26/11. Why should we be the ones doing any compromising ?
                            The two positions are so far apart that there is no compromise possible.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by antimony View Post
                              These guys apparently do not smoke weed, so how do they get so high ???
                              What, no man, they smoke weed, infact they have very good quality charas.
                              They live in a religious lala land. Review their Army's moto, and it becomes very very clear.
                              https://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview/_footer.html

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by kuku View Post
                                The two positions are so far apart that there is no compromise possible.
                                So what ? time is on our side. They're running out.

                                Only thing India wants from them is a ratification of the status quo.

                                If you're wondering what i mean, either read this or listen to this
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 25 Mar 19,, 12:48.

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