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The US 2020 Presidential Election & Attempts To Overturn It

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  • Originally posted by DOR View Post
    Nonsense.
    There is nothing in the UK that says private health care is illegal.
    There is nothing in Hong Kong that says private health care is illegal.
    There is no logical reason why extending medicare to everyone requires eliminating private healthcare.
    It is a red herring, and frankly beneath the quality of thinking I expect from most of the people who regularly comment here.
    If you want private healthcare after everyone has access to healthcare, pay for it.
    But, don't justify denying healthcare to the most needy with an argument that is based on the wishes -- not needs, but desires -- of the most well-to-do.
    Let me clarify as you misunderstood.

    Sharing, to me, mean in taxes. How do you pay for universal health care generally? Usually you would do it with taxes, no? I can say for sure that those who have a great plan, and pay some for it, are not behind raising their taxes to pay for someone else's health care. Human nature being human nature means get your own. Being in health care I know what it takes but it also means I run into people who are dead set against it because of what they think it will cost them for all those "others".

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    • I cannot think of a European country that does not have some form of universal healthcare system and all of them pay less for healthcare as % of GDP than the US. Sure I payed taxes for the National Health Service in the UK - not alot and I did not really notice it - although I had private care for anything serious and whenever going abroad. Need a couple of stitches or fracture a shoulder - no problem just go and sit in Accident and Emergency and they fix you up. Need an operation probably worth considering using your private insurance depending on how fast you want it done. It still altogether costs less than healthcare in the US.

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      • What private insurance? Bernie Sanders is well aware of your little trick and M4A explicitly bans private insurance that offers the same services as Medicare, explicitly so you cannot do exactly what you just said you wanted to do. M4A also dramatically expands coverage to all sorts of things that many universal plans in other countries do not cover, and eliminates cost-sharing, which is, again, something most universal plans do not do.

        Medicare and Medicaid both reimburse far less than private insurance already, so the goal is to ban wealthier individuals from using their money to queue-jump or otherwise get health-care outside the approved government system. However, best of luck with that, because hospitals are already generally financially constrained, and will lose money if they go 100% medicare even under current rates, let alone the fantasy rate reductions that are established to make these plans look cheaper.

        It is correct to note that the Biden plan is not this, but the Biden plan is also not a universal coverage plan as you would understand.

        It is also correct to note that 50% of the Dem house caucus has endorsed a plan that involves totally eliminating private insurance practically overnight, on the promise that they can use a magic wand to make something better. They can't automate their own retirement system, they cannot even set up a web portal to BUY health insurance correctly, but they sure do feel comfortable taking away my family's health coverage because they can totally do better, just you wait.
        "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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        • Biden seeks restoration of peoples' rights in Kashmir; disappointed with NRC, CAA

          Election rhetoric. I hope, if he wins, Ash Carter becomes the SecofState.
          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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          • Fox News trying to lull liberals into a false sense of security


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            • Originally posted by GVChamp View Post
              What private insurance?
              In the UK, Canada, Poland, Ukraine and France (at least) private health insurance is allowed. Pretty sure it allowed throughout the EU as if you go skiing in Italy, Austria or Switzerland you normally take out private insurance - same with other holidays. It is not compulsory but if you get ill and want to get home etc to use the public health system then it is normal to take out holiday insurance.

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              • Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
                Let me clarify as you misunderstood.

                Sharing, to me, mean in taxes. How do you pay for universal health care generally? Usually you would do it with taxes, no? I can say for sure that those who have a great plan, and pay some for it, are not behind raising their taxes to pay for someone else's health care. Human nature being human nature means get your own. Being in health care I know what it takes but it also means I run into people who are dead set against it because of what they think it will cost them for all those "others".
                tbm3fan,
                Yeah, that's the way of the world, isn't it.
                Doesn't change a thing.
                The physical health of the people is a national security issue, but chicken hawks won't want to pay for it.

                GVChamp,
                It might has escaped your attention that Bernie Sanders isn't the presumptive nominee of any US political party. It might also have escaped your notice that there are many, many different proposals for expanding healthcare to cover everyone who really needs it (NB: I don't recall mentioning universal coverage recently, but maybe it slipped in). Just because one proposal doesn't sound very good isn't a valid reason to throw out the entire idea.

                Every time anyone brings up "But Bernie said,..." I figure they haven't got any more ammunition in the can.
                Trust me?
                I'm an economist!

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                • Originally posted by DOR View Post
                  The physical health of the people is a national security issue, but chicken hawks won't want to pay for it.
                  And a hell of a lot of it could be achieved through nutrition and physical activitiy but the damned chickens won't stop eating junk and are couch potatoes. A diet is a hell of a lot cheaper than stomache tying.
                  Chimo

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                  • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                    In the UK, Canada, Poland, Ukraine and France (at least) private health insurance is allowed. Pretty sure it allowed throughout the EU as if you go skiing in Italy, Austria or Switzerland you normally take out private insurance - same with other holidays. It is not compulsory but if you get ill and want to get home etc to use the public health system then it is normal to take out holiday insurance.
                    In Australia private & public operate side by side. Everyone is covered by Medicare and those who want a higher level of coverage take out private. From my POV Medicare should cover more & be better funded (surprise surprise Conservative governments have been defunding it for decades), but it gives people low cost/no cost access to quality healthcare.

                    The US system looks like something you would design if you wanted high cost, high profit & highly complex healthcare. Only accident or ideology would produce something that poorly designed.
                    sigpic

                    Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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                    • BF,

                      oh, it's wonderfully designed...if the goal of the design is to maximize profit for the pharmaceutical and healthcare industries.
                      There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                      • Originally posted by astralis View Post
                        BF,

                        oh, it's wonderfully designed...if the goal of the design is to maximize profit for the pharmaceutical and healthcare industries.
                        Indeed.

                        It is so blatant that I genuinely query the perceptive abilities of people who try to defend it as anything other than a money making machine incidentally concerned with providing healthcare. That doesn't mean it can't or won't provide quality healthcare for those who can afford it, but the results for those without money and the drag on the rest of the economy is indefensible. It is also completely unnecessary. Just about everyone else worth paying attention to does it better.
                        sigpic

                        Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

                        Comment


                        • Some interesting youtube



                          And the rebuttat



                          Disclaimer: I found Adam ruins everything to be full of shit in a lot of things. He's a comedian, not an expert in any subject. I also found Dr Mike, while a genuine person, could not admit he made a mistake (he kept pushing the CDC and the WHO as the sole sources of COVID-19 information and recommendations)

                          As for national security

                          Last edited by Officer of Engineers; 26 Jun 20,, 15:58.
                          Chimo

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                          • Originally posted by snapper View Post
                            In the UK, Canada, Poland, Ukraine and France (at least) private health insurance is allowed. Pretty sure it allowed throughout the EU as if you go skiing in Italy, Austria or Switzerland you normally take out private insurance - same with other holidays. It is not compulsory but if you get ill and want to get home etc to use the public health system then it is normal to take out holiday insurance.
                            Yes, I understand THAT, but that's not the Bernie Sanders health plan. That's the problem when you have discussions that devolve into "oh, but that's the way everyone else does it." One, there is no ONE system that everyone else uses, and two, Medicare-for-all does not resemble any of those systems. It does not even resemble Medicare! It's just using the brand of a popular program to create something different.


                            The "moderate" position is to create a Public Option, and whatever, but this fundamentally won't address the criticisms, which are about out-of-pocket health expenses. The Public Option is just going to be a health care plan operated through the government instead of a private insurance company. There will still be high deductibles and high out-of-pocket maximums. This is getting patched over with ever-generous tax credits, but ultimately you just need to raise taxes (and that will eventually mean payroll taxes!) to pay for this. If you are taking rich people money to pay for this expansion, then you're not taking rich people money to pay for other things (like the huge deficit or college or whatever).


                            Actual cost control is basically hopeless because we operate on assumptions like "America doesn't do enough preventative care!" which are directionally untrue. What's more true is that America has vastly more ventilator-equipped ICU beds and MRIs. That's not all of it, but "Americans don't want to wear masks and instead get put on expensive ventilators that only marginally improve aggregate health outcomes" is closer to what "cost control" will actually look like than the magic wand plans.


                            It might has escaped your attention that Bernie Sanders isn't the presumptive nominee of any US political party. It might also have escaped your notice that there are many, many different proposals for expanding healthcare to cover everyone who really needs it (NB: I don't recall mentioning universal coverage recently, but maybe it slipped in). Just because one proposal doesn't sound very good isn't a valid reason to throw out the entire idea.

                            Every time anyone brings up "But Bernie said,..." I figure they haven't got any more ammunition in the can.
                            This isn't persuasive to me. Half your party caucus and multiple of your leading candidates openly announced that they are totally okay taking my health care away on a flight of fancy. That you managed to Hail Mary your way out of his nomination THIS time does not mean I feel comfortable voting for anyone in your party. It is rapidly radicalizing to more and more moronic policies that are also destructive to my personal well-being.

                            That does not mean I fall into the category of "filibuster/obstruct everything" but there's absolutely no convincing reason that I should ever vote for a Democrat, who will be in political alliance with these nutjobs that are the majority of your elected officials, the majority of your voter base, and the vast majority of your future voter base.

                            You don't really NEED my vote, so there's no real need to persuade me, but, whatever, I remain unpersuaded.
                            Last edited by GVChamp; 26 Jun 20,, 16:42.
                            "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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                            • Trump Can’t Name One Thing He’d Prioritize if Re-elected

                              Trump had it all: Home-field advantage, an adoring audience, a pitcher who was determined to make him look good by serving up nothing but softballs, and yet again the president struck out. Somehow, in the midst of a campaign season, Trump could not name a single thing he’d prioritize if American voters are kind enough to give him another term in office come November.

                              Fox News’ Sean Hannity teed one up for the president during a Thursday interview that was filled with simple, leading questions.

                              Hannity asked Trump: “If you hear in 131 days from now, at some point in the night or early morning: ‘We can now project Donald J. Trump has been re-elected the 45th president of the United States’—let’s talk. What’s at stake in this election as you compare and contrast, and what is one of your top priority items for a second term?”

                              A completely stumped Trump decided to riff and wound up rambling off a mess of words that were tailor-made for the viral comedic sensation Sara Cooper’s next lip-synch video.

                              “Well, one of the things that will be really great, you know, the word experience is still good,” Trump said while turning to the audience. “I always say talent is more important than experience. I’ve always said that. But the word experience is a very important word. It’s an, a very important meaning.”

                              The president continued to answer the question about some of the important issues he’d conquer during a second term if given the chance.

                              “I never did this before. I never slept over in Washington. I was in Washington, I think, 17 times. All of a sudden, I’m president of the United States. You know the story. I’m riding down Pennsylvania Avenue with our first lady and I say, ‘This is great,'” Trump said. “But I didn’t know very many people in Washington, it wasn’t my thing. I was from Manhattan, from New York. Now, I know everybody, and I have great people in the administration.”


                              Without taking a breath, Trump then pivoted to his former national security adviser John Bolton, whose new book about his time in the White House has gotten under the president’s skin—but also, who has nothing to do with the question Hannity asked.

                              “You make some mistakes. Like, you know, an idiot like Bolton. The only thing he wanted to do was drop bombs on everybody. You don’t have to drop bombs on everybody. You don’t have to kill people,” Trump said.

                              Hannity finally jumped in to help by continuing Trump’s focus on Bolton and left the topic of a second term as though the question was never asked.

                              With the ongoing pandemic, the economy in shambles, and even some of Trump’s pet issues like immigration, it’s hard to fathom why he drifted the way he did. But thankfully for the president, Hannity was there to hold his hand and guide him through an interview that short on substance, but long on propaganda.
                              _______________


                              Not One Fucking THING.
                              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                              • I seriously should have put some money on Biden when he was still trading a 45 cents. He's at 62 cents right now which is still tempting enough to see if I can make an account and throw like 10 grand on it.
                                "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

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