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Thread: The US 2020 Presidential Election

  1. #226
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    The GOP had better hope that the Dems never, ever, get the Oval Office and both Chambers at the same time. Trump opened the floodgates and the Dems will have no problem using it against them.
    I have to disagree.
    We, the Democrats, believe in the constitution and respect the opinons of others.

    Play fair, and we'll see who gets the most votes.

    Cheat, by refusing to let people register to vote, or not making voting easy, or by not having an honest count, and we'll come down on you like a ton of bricks.
    Cheat, by refusing to even give a fair hearing to the President's Supreme Court nominee, or by demanding thorough ignorance before voting on impeachement charges, and you will not be forgiven.
    Cheat, by inviting foreign governments to interfer in our democratic processes, and we will bring the wrath of God down on your heads.

    Otherwise, go out there and make your policy pitches. Put up your best, and let's let the voters decide.
    After all, that's the American way.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  2. #227
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    DOR,

    I have to disagree.
    We, the Democrats, believe in the constitution and respect the opinons of others.
    yes, there are some red lines that Democrats should not cross: inviting foreign powers to meddle in our elections, for instance.

    but WITHIN constitutional bounds, I believe that the Democrats must be willing to play hardball-- no, actually -play- hardball for a while and let the GOP fully understand what they have unleashed.

    because i -guarantee- you the second the GOP lose the oval office and both chambers, they are going to start making noise again about "regular order", about obscure Senatorial rules and traditions, judicial "blue slips", about PAYGO, about the Senate being the saucer to cool populist passions, etc etc etc.

    not because the GOP places any importance whatsoever on this -- Mitch McConnell has already demonstrated that he's happy to rip up tradition to advance his objectives-- but because they view it as a method to trip up the Dems.

    if Dems are stupid enough to go "full Biden" and go back to playing by pre-Trump rules, then they will see complete and utter paralysis for the time they are in power.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #228
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    DOR,



    yes, there are some red lines that Democrats should not cross: inviting foreign powers to meddle in our elections, for instance.

    but WITHIN constitutional bounds, I believe that the Democrats must be willing to play hardball-- no, actually -play- hardball for a while and let the GOP fully understand what they have unleashed.

    because i -guarantee- you the second the GOP lose the oval office and both chambers, they are going to start making noise again about "regular order", about obscure Senatorial rules and traditions, judicial "blue slips", about PAYGO, about the Senate being the saucer to cool populist passions, etc etc etc.

    not because the GOP places any importance whatsoever on this -- Mitch McConnell has already demonstrated that he's happy to rip up tradition to advance his objectives-- but because they view it as a method to trip up the Dems.

    if Dems are stupid enough to go "full Biden" and go back to playing by pre-Trump rules, then they will see complete and utter paralysis for the time they are in power.

    When was the last time the Democratic Party played hardball? Nixon? Or, was that the Washington Post playing hardball, and Dems catching up?

    It certainly wasn’t this latest impeachment, which Speaker Pelosi clearly thought was a Very Bad Idea!

    It certainly wasn’t Obama + 2 Houses, when we bent over backward trying to dredge up some tiny handful of GOPers to back strategic national interest economic rescue packages (or healthcare reform)!

    Of course the GOPers are going to bemoan the fact that the Presidency got Imperial and Congress got Ahead of Itself, just as soon as they’re out of office.

    Reminds me of old Roy Cooper, the first man to oust a sitting North Carolina governor since 1850. Cooper took office on January 1, 2017. The Republican-dominated legislature passed bills in a special session before he took office to reduce the power of the governor's office.

    If you can’t win fairly, cheat.

    “Going full Biden,” as you put it – I assume that means a gentlemanly response to vulgar politics – is what I call being a patriotic American. We Democrats have lost elections before because of that tendency (1972 and 1980 come to mind), and we will again.

    Because, it’s the right thing to do.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

  4. #229
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    Reminds me of old Roy Cooper, the first man to oust a sitting North Carolina governor since 1850. Cooper took office on January 1, 2017. The Republican-dominated legislature passed bills in a special session before he took office to reduce the power of the governor's office.

    If you can’t win fairly, cheat.

    “Going full Biden,” as you put it – I assume that means a gentlemanly response to vulgar politics – is what I call being a patriotic American. We Democrats have lost elections before because of that tendency (1972 and 1980 come to mind), and we will again.

    Because, it’s the right thing to do.
    i completely disagree with this.

    in the past, yes-- because there were institutions and traditions that acted as stabilizers. "it's just not done, old chap."

    Nixon was booted out because there were enough Republicans whom told that his behavior was unacceptable and that they could not back him. same thing whenever either side was too aggressive with gerrymandering.

    now, things have completely changed. you and i both talk about the necessity for a "strong, conservative party" to balance out the excesses of a "strong, progressive party". guess what, the GOP for all practical intents and purposes do not believe in this at all. this imbalance of viewpoints and priorities is a -huge- part of why the GOP is comfortable with breaking traditions-- as the so-called "conservative" party!-- over and over again.

    so actually, the main concern I have is not so much with the GOP outright -cheating-. it's all the stuff they do that's technically legal but completely wreck the foundation of trust that's necessary for a democratic republic to survive.

    Mitch McConnell is -legally- stuffing the judiciary full of incompetent judges, because partisan affiliation and age are more important to him than competency.

    REDMAP was fully legalized gerrymandering using computer modeling. Democratic responses to REDMAP have been on a state by state basis, because Mitch McConnell got Neil Gorsuch onto the court and not Merrick Garland, and the Supreme Court ruled that partisan gerrymandering was outside their remit and handed it back to the states to deal with. and the Republicans have been leaning on their judges at the state-level, with threats of recall; on the federal level, see Mitch McConnell's actions per above.

    all fully legal, all meant to wreck the political opposition in such a way that makes them a -permanent- minority party. a gentlemanly response to this is slow political suicide, and to my eyes slow national suicide because it is by definition destroying the two-party system we have.

    this isn't like the 18th century cabinet wars, where the loser shrugs, takes some snuff, everyone compromises and the music begins again after some reshuffling.

    this is total war-- the GOP is not interested in short-term policy victories, but rather long-term political domination. until this changes, going full Biden isn't patriotic, it will lead to the destruction of our (lower-d) democratic system in the name of civility.
    Last edited by astralis; 20 Feb 20, at 16:34.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #230
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    i completely disagree with this.
    Well, I'm not willing to sully the good name of the Democratic Party simply because voters are yet to figure out that the GOPers are the anti-American party. Yes, we will lose elections, and this year is even more important than 2016. But, if we win by becoming no better than the GOPers, we lose.
    Trust me?
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  6. #231
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    DOR appears to have forgotten all of the Democrat dirty pool while pushing through Obama Care.

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    DOR,

    Well, I'm not willing to sully the good name of the Democratic Party simply because voters are yet to figure out that the GOPers are the anti-American party. Yes, we will lose elections, and this year is even more important than 2016. But, if we win by becoming no better than the GOPers, we lose.
    as i said, i'm not advocating for foreign interference in our elections, nor do we need the likes of Roger Stone or Rudy Giuliani on our team. so no, the Dems are not going to become as bad as the GOP anytime soon.

    but losing elections isn't -just- losing an election for four years anymore. every time the GOP wins an election, they use it to screw over their opponents for -at least- the next 10-15 years.

    Dems won 2018 by a considerably larger margin than the GOP won in 2010, yet we're still undoing the damage from 2010. it's a ridiculous state of affairs where undoing a medium-sized GOP victory requires -several- landslide elections by Dems.

    and given the way partisanship works in this country, you're simply not going to persuade any number of Republicans that "the GOPers are the anti-American party". Trump was right in that he could shoot someone down in the middle of 5th Avenue and he'd still have, at minimum, his 35-40% core support.

    i think the best way to put it is that 1.) the GOP has cheated and they've prospered. 2.) the GOP has played (legal) dirty pool, and they've prospered, 3.) the partisanship in the electorate is such that -punishing- the GOP for doing that is going to be, at best, an uphill battle.

    the only way to properly deter the GOP from trying to screw over the Dems via dirty pool is for them to taste a bit of their own medicine.

    BTW, that's why if Warren can't win the nom, I wouldn't mind if Bloomberg does. he may be a total @$$hole, but I'd just love to see the GOP drowned in his wealth and start b*tching about Citizens United.
    Last edited by astralis; 20 Feb 20, at 22:42.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  8. #233
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    surfgun,

    DOR appears to have forgotten all of the Democrat dirty pool while pushing through Obama Care.
    this is policy vs trying to accumulate political power.

    had Mitch McConnell managed to repeal ACA, I'd have said that was Mitch McConnell deftly mustering political power to achieve a policy goal. that's not dirty pool for politics; that's to be expected. same thing with McConnell passing the TCJA in the teeth of Dem opposition, or pushing Kavanaugh into the Supreme Court.

    of course i disagree with all of this but that's not dirty.

    it's the stuff like REDMAP, Merrick Garland, the NC/Wisconsin/Michigan GOP state legislatures trying to screw over the incoming Dem governor...-that- is dirty pool.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  9. #234
    Senior Contributor DOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    DOR appears to have forgotten all of the Democrat dirty pool while pushing through Obama Care.
    That would be ... not going for the single-payer option, because some GOPers said they would support something less than that, and then didn't?
    Trust me?
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  10. #235
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    btw, even the policy stuff i'm waving aside would -still- be considered dirty pool in a former era. reconciliation to pass the TCJA was a crock of shite, and has proven thus in the deficit. Republicans ignoring the blue-slip tradition for judges.

    but those are significantly lesser offenses than trying to stamp out political opposition altogether by tilting the field before they leave office.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  11. #236
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Daniel Ortega gives Sanders a thumbs up!
    https://www.theblaze.com/news/nicara...dorses_sanders
    Last edited by surfgun; 23 Feb 20, at 22:33.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfgun View Post
    Daniel Ortega gives Sanders a thumbs up!
    https://www.theblaze.com/news/nicara...dorses_sanders
    and Putin gives thumbs up on Trump so what's your point? Is this a contest of dictators?

  13. #238
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    and Putin gives thumbs up on Trump so what's your point? Is this a contest of dictators?
    Regurgitating propaganda (per MSDNC and fake news CNN and deep state operatives)? Show the video of Putin giving an endorsement.
    Last edited by surfgun; 24 Feb 20, at 12:38.

  14. #239
    Senior Contributor surfgun's Avatar
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    Bernie is still pretty pro communist Cuba as viewed by his 60 Minute interview.
    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ber...ialist-defense
    Last edited by surfgun; 24 Feb 20, at 12:38.

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    Seriously. Stop with the inane conspiracy theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    and Putin gives thumbs up on Trump so what's your point? Is this a contest of dictators?

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