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Thread: 2019 American Political Scene

  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    to the GOP, it will be the godless transsexual illegal immigrants coming over to take their guns.
    We need emoji's back. That is a succinct (and accurate) description of how the Republican base views their Democratic opponents. The inverse (how Dem base views the Reps) would be "bible-thumping, racist, sexist, homophobic, coal burning rednecks!" I guess.

  2. #317
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    this actually highlights the difference between the two parties.

    yup, you'll get plenty of the dem base whom think that the other side consists of "bible-thumping, racist, sexist, homophobic, coal burning rednecks"...but plenty of others whom think Republicans are just misguided, that if only Trump was gone the GOP would turn back into George HW Bush-style moderates. (lol...)

    that's half the reason why Biden is popular among the older crowd (and it really IS older; he only has 2% support among Democrats under 45!).

    meanwhile how big are the ranks of the never-Trumpers?

    it's true that the defeat of HRC sent shockwaves into the Dem establishment and opened the field to more radical thinking, but even now the Dems don't have anything on the GOP in this regard.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  3. #318
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    I consider myself a conservative by and large - balance the books fiscally and proactive on foreign policy (rather than reactive) and I was 'never Trumper' from the start because it was so damn obvious that the Man child was in debt to the Muscovite Mafiosi - which essentially the same thing as the Putine regime. I hope he will be impeached and go to prison along with his pals.

    What happens to the US Conservative cause after Trumpkin, who was never a conservative in any real sense anyway, is that it hopefully turns against this 'Trumpism' and rejects it utterly though some of those Congressmen who have enabled (even if only by turning a blind eye) among the Republicans as well as those such as Lindsay Graham who thought they might 'control' this mobster idiot cannot in my view be electable again.

    I recall there was a leak from someone working inside the administration a while back describing what it was like and there was some discussion on the forum about whether a person working for such an administration should resign or not. As I recall I then argued that it was a Civil Servants duty to remain in place so as to better fight the excesses of any insane policy but it is far past the point at one's duty to serve the people overcomes the moral performance of an administration which by every standard is acting solely in the financial and political interests of the Trump family and their criminal associates abroad. To continue to serve a perversion of an administration would be neither serving the people/the Crown or the Republic nor compatible with any notion of honour.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    What happens to the US Conservative cause after Trumpkin, who was never a conservative in any real sense anyway, is that it hopefully turns against this 'Trumpism' and rejects it utterly though some of those Congressmen who have enabled (even if only by turning a blind eye) among the Republicans as well as those such as Lindsay Graham who thought they might 'control' this mobster idiot cannot in my view be electable again.
    I don't know about all Conservatives but one good thing that Trump (unintentionally) did was reveal the true colors of American Christian Conservatives. The people who sanctimoniously preached to everyone about morals and family values and opposed gay marriage because it would destroy the institution of marriage staunchly supported a serial adulterer who admitted to molesting women and slept with a porn star while his wife was pregnant.

    I recall there was a leak from someone working inside the administration a while back describing what it was like and there was some discussion on the forum about whether a person working for such an administration should resign or not. As I recall I then argued that it was a Civil Servants duty to remain in place so as to better fight the excesses of any insane policy but it is far past the point at one's duty to serve the people overcomes the moral performance of an administration which by every standard is acting solely in the financial and political interests of the Trump family and their criminal associates abroad. To continue to serve a perversion of an administration would be neither serving the people/the Crown or the Republic nor compatible with any notion of honour.
    If they feel what they are being asked to do is illegal, unethical or morally reprehensible they should definitely raise concerns like Vindmann did or just resign. But if they choose to turn a blind eye and keep serving the administration, they would still be "serving the people" since the people elected the administration. The people just didn't mind having an administration which does all those things.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    I don't know about all Conservatives but one good thing that Trump (unintentionally) did was reveal the true colors of American Christian Conservatives. The people who sanctimoniously preached to everyone about morals and family values and opposed gay marriage because it would destroy the institution of marriage staunchly supported a serial adulterer who admitted to molesting women and slept with a porn star while his wife was pregnant.
    Clearly US 'Christians' and I differ in degree. I do not altogether agree with same sex marriage as a law that should be passed but if a same sex couple can find a Priest who will marry them I cannot see why the law should treat them differently. I believe there was a time in the UK (maybe still the case) when you could not marry without parental consent until 18 except for one place which came under Scottish legal jurisdiction called Gretna Green. So every year teenage (16 and 17yr olds) sweethearts apparently headed there to be married to then return home - where the marriage was recognised.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firestorm View Post
    If they feel what they are being asked to do is illegal, unethical or morally reprehensible they should definitely raise concerns like Vindmann did or just resign. But if they choose to turn a blind eye and keep serving the administration, they would still be "serving the people" since the people elected the administration. The people just didn't mind having an administration which does all those things.
    The people did not elect Trumpkin to serve his own interests. I offered my resignation to the Ukrainian government department for which I worked after Zelensky accepted this idiotic 'Steinmeir formula' for the implication of the 'Minsk process' as it was unacceptable to the honour of those soldiers who had given their lives to make any withdrawal from the Donbass front and therefore unacceptable to my honour. Additionally it was lunacy of the highest degree to believe Moscow would in any way reciprocate since there was not a shred of evidence of the Putin ever keeping their word before. It may be insanity or it may be treason in the Zelensky case - I am not sure which...yet but in the US case it was a candidate in hock to Moscow from the start.

  6. #321
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    snapper,

    I consider myself a conservative by and large - balance the books fiscally and proactive on foreign policy (rather than reactive) and I was 'never Trumper' from the start because it was so damn obvious that the Man child was in debt to the Muscovite Mafiosi - which essentially the same thing as the Putine regime. I hope he will be impeached and go to prison along with his pals.
    to be fair, you're not an American Republican so the term 'never-Trumper' doesn't -quite- fit you. :-)

    re: Ukraine, it's clear that Trump hates Ukraine -personally-, not just because he is "in hock" to the Putin regime.

    Washington Post recently did an article that showed how Trump has had a hatred of Ukraine ever since Manafort started telling him the lie that Ukraine was actively supporting HRC.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...6ef_story.html

    Three of President Trump’s top advisers met with him in the Oval Office in May, determined to convince him that the new Ukrainian leader was an ally deserving of U.S. support.

    They had barely begun their pitch when Trump unloaded on them, according to current and former U.S. officials familiar with the meeting. In Trump’s mind, the officials said, Ukraine’s entire leadership had colluded with the Democrats to undermine his 2016 presidential campaign.

    “They tried to take me down,” Trump railed.

    Energy Secretary Rick Perry, the senior member of the group, assured Trump that the new Ukrainian president was different — a reformer in Trump’s mold who had even quoted President Ronald Reagan in his inaugural address, for which the three advisers had been present.

    But the harder they pushed in the Oval Office, the more Trump resisted.

    “They are horrible, corrupt people,” Trump told them.
    What happens to the US Conservative cause after Trumpkin, who was never a conservative in any real sense anyway, is that it hopefully turns against this 'Trumpism' and rejects it utterly though some of those Congressmen who have enabled (even if only by turning a blind eye) among the Republicans as well as those such as Lindsay Graham who thought they might 'control' this mobster idiot cannot in my view be electable again.
    I find this highly unlikely. Trump is more popular with the GOP base than REAGAN. Let me repeat that again: more popular than Reagan. indeed, the only one that comes close is George W Bush immediately after 9-11, when literally 90% of the country supported him!

    the idea that Trump was "never a conservative in any real sense anyway" was true up until he took the GOP nomination in 2016, and since then he's demonstrated repeatedly that conservatism is how he defines it. don't believe me? look at the fate of Justin Amash or Mark Sanford, both former Tea Party giants.

    even supposing Trump is defeated in a landslide in 2020, no one expects he will go quietly, or that the rest of his sordid family will simply take their money and disappear.

    he will hold a long-time influence over the GOP either way, because it's clear that the Trump brand of Republicanism animates the GOP base in a way that Reaganite Republicanism no longer does.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  7. #322
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    VA legislature just flipped to Dem control; looks like Kentucky-- Kentucky!-- will have a Democratic governor.

    Mississippi (!!) governor election is still competitive.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    ooks like Kentucky-- Kentucky!-- will have a Democratic governor.
    And, confirmed. Democrat Andy Beshear is the new Governor of Kentucky.

    I wonder how Snappy Turtle is feeling right about now...
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

  9. #324
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    I'm going to enjoy Trump dumping on Bevin tomorrow.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    And, confirmed. Democrat Andy Beshear is the new Governor of Kentucky.

    I wonder how Snappy Turtle is feeling right about now...
    Virginia is BLUE!!!

    And I wonder how Amy McGrath is feeling today!
    “Loyalty to country ALWAYS. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it.”
    Mark Twain

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    I'm going to enjoy Trump dumping on Bevin tomorrow.
    Monday

    "If you lose, they're going to say Trump suffered the greatest defeat in the history of the world. This was the greatest. You can't let that happen to me," he told Bevin at their rally.

    Wednesday/Thursday

    "_________________________________________________ _______________________________"

    Stay tuned

  12. #327
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    the new line is that Bevin was down 17 points (LOL) and that Trump's godly presence got him within 5,000 votes.

    RNC Chair Ronna Romney McDaniel, oops, I mean Ronna McDaniel, is busy "crediting" Trump that way for every single loss, and attributing every victory to him as well...just in case anyone has any doubt as to where the GOP is tying their fortunes.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    the new line is that Bevin was down 17 points (LOL) and that Trump's godly presence got him within 5,000 votes.

    RNC Chair Ronna Romney McDaniel, oops, I mean Ronna McDaniel, is busy "crediting" Trump that way for every single loss, and attributing every victory to him as well...just in case anyone has any doubt as to where the GOP is tying their fortunes.
    I would also expect the standard trope about voting irregularities, i.e. double voting, ballot stuffing, and illegal immigrants voting, to be the refrain in the coming days now.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    I would also expect the standard trope about voting irregularities, i.e. double voting, ballot stuffing, and illegal immigrants voting, to be the refrain in the coming days now.
    Don't forget the usual tripe about "Deep State Socialists" or some such. Throw in conspiracy theories about George Soros for bonus points.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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    Trump Tax Return Case Hinges on John Roberts

    (Bloomberg Opinion) -- Fighting to keep his tax returns secret, President Donald Trump will soon ask the U.S. Supreme Court to grant him “temporary absolute immunity” from any criminal investigation while he’s in office. The case sets up yet another test for the court’s new swing voter, Chief Justice John Roberts, who is devoted to the principle of judicial restraint.

    The federal appeals court that has already rejected Trump’s claim understood this perfectly. It issued an extremely cautious, narrow opinion targeted straight at Roberts. That opinion, a minor masterpiece of judicial craft, strongly increases the odds that Roberts will reject absolute presidential immunity. In light of that opinion, I cautiously predict that, if the Supreme Court takes the case, it will hold that Trump’s accountant can be subpoenaed by a New York state grand jury to turn over the president’s tax records.

    The first question is whether the justices will consider the issue of Trump’s tax returns at all. It takes four justices for the court to decide to hear a case (grant certiorari, in the legal Latin jargon favored by the court).

    It’s a pretty safe bet that the court’s four liberals would be happy to duck this one. The federal district court and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit have both ruled that Trump’s accountant must comply with the grand jury subpoena procured by prosecutors from the Manhattan district attorney’s office. If the Supreme Court were to decline to take the case, the appellate court ruling would stand. Trump would have to comply. And the court could avoid a potential confrontation with Trump, thus keeping its powder dry for a more serious confrontation — which might well come during the impeachment inquiry.

    Conversely, it seems likely that the court’s hard-core conservatives, Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch, will want to take the case. Thomas in particular is an outspoken advocate of maximal presidential power. A state criminal investigation that implicates the president could potentially impede his ability to do his job effectively. Thomas would probably love to issue a broad holding that makes the president absolutely immune from criminal prosecution so long as he’s in office. Alito and Gorsuch, who both favor a strong executive, probably wouldn’t want to be left out.

    The fourth vote to grant cert could come from Justice Brett Kavanaugh. On the one hand, he’s a conservative who believes in a strong executive, and he wrote a law review article after his time in the George W. Bush administration arguing that presidents should not have to face civil lawsuits or criminal charges while in office. But on the other, his formative legal experience came while working for independent counsel Ken Starr’s investigation of President Bill Clinton, which ended up accusing a sitting president of lying under oath, a federal crime. He may not want to join a sweeping decision declaring total presidential immunity from criminal investigation, preferring instead to let the lower court’s narrower ruling stand.

    If Kavanaugh decides not to vote to grant cert with Alito, Gorsuch and Thomas, a fourth vote would likely have to come from Roberts. As chief justice, Roberts might think the court can’t shirk its responsibility to weigh in on an important issue like presidential immunity. If so, he would vote to hear the case. But as chief justice he would also have to preside over a Senate impeachment trial; thus he might also like to avoid taking this case and let the lower court’s ruling stand.

    If the court agrees to hear the case, the 2nd Circuit has paved the way for a narrow Roberts opinion — one the liberals (and even Kavanaugh) could join. The 2nd Circuit opinion went to great lengths to avoid the hardest constitutional issue, namely whether a sitting president can be subjected to criminal investigation by a state. It pointed out that the subpoena was issued only to Trump’s accountant, not to the president himself. And it noted that previous presidents since Jimmy Carter had all released their tax returns, a good indication that disclosing a president’s tax returns while in office would not unduly interfere with the president’s ability to do his job.

    Most crucially, the opinion framed the issue in the case as only whether presidential immunity bars the “enforcement of a state grand jury subpoena directing a third party to produce non‐privileged material, even when the subject matter under investigation pertains to the president.” That’s lawyer-speak for saying that a decision against Trump wouldn’t have to say a word about whether the president is immune from criminal investigation.
    In essence, the court of appeals was telling Roberts that the tax returns case can be decided by saying as little as possible. It invited him to hold back from addressing the constitutionally fundamental question of whether a state prosecutor can investigate and criminally charge a sitting president.

    That invitation is squarely addressed to Roberts’s distinct philosophy of judicial restraint. Roberts believes the court should take the narrowest possible approach in deciding a case. As he has put it more than once, “If it is not necessary to decide more, it is necessary not to decide more.”

    The upshot is that the appeals court has teed up a perfect opportunity for Roberts to exercise judicial restraint. The smart money says that, one way or another, he will take it.
    ______________

    And final act (of this particular legal battle, anyway) is about to play out. As the op-ed title says, it'll all come down to Roberts.

    And god damn Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh to hell. "The President is totally immune from criminal investigation". What in the actual fuck do these fascists think we're living in, a dictatorship?

    If Congress can't investigate the President, then what the fuck good is Article I, Section 2, Clause 5 of the Constitution even worth? In any case, the issue at hand is Mazars, not Trump, complying with a Congressional subpoena.

    Can't wait to see how this one turns out...and what Trump will do if Mazars complies with a court order to turn over the records of his criminal organization.
    “You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if the Senate determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.”
    ~ Lindsey Graham

    "The notion that you can withhold information and documents from Congress no matter whether you are the party in power or not in power is wrong. Respect for the rule of law must mean something, irrespective of the vicissitudes of political cycles."
    ~ Trey Gowdy

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