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Thread: 2019 American Political Scene

  1. #136
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gall...racy-news.aspx

    What Americans thought about their media. Six months ago.

    Overall, U.S. adults estimate that 62% of the news they read in newspapers, see on television or hear on the radio is biased. They think the news media mostly provide accurate information, but still estimate that 44% of what they see is inaccurate. And they believe that more than a third of the news they see in these channels is misinformation -- false or inaccurate information that is presented as if it were true.
    Who can blame them.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Young lady, I was still in uniform when the Berlin Wall came down. You were in highschool. So, don't you DARE lecture me about the times I lived through. Promises were given to Moscow by London, Paris, Washington, and Berlin. Clinton renegged on those promises.
    Where is the agreement you refer to? No international agreements or treaties matter to Moscow, as they have proved, but there was none. Where are these 'promises' in a Treaty or even a Memorandum? Were you there perhaps when such promises were given? Who gave them? Has Moscow kept it's promises?

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    That was NOT your point. You said the Kosovo War was vastly different from the Putin's adventures in the UKR. HOW? Anyone with an ounce of brains knew EXACTLY where Putin got his ideas.
    No Sir that was NOT my point, my point was a larger comparison and I specifically said I did not think Kosovo wise or right for that purpose. The fact is that those subjected to Muscovite rule long to be embraced by the West and repudiate any ties to Moscow at the first opportunity. In the end of the day, through all their lies, Moscow must account for why that is. Why did Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and today Ukraine long to become part of the Western system rather than the Muscovite? Well I know - as does everyone in Central Europe and essentially it boils down to the rule of law which encourages enterprise and prohibits corruption.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Where is the agreement you refer to? No international agreements or treaties matter to Moscow, as they have proved, but there was none. Where are these 'promises' in a Treaty or even a Memorandum? Were you there perhaps when such promises were given? Who gave them?
    Aren't you tire yet of being utterly and completely wrong?

    Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Has Moscow kept it's promises?
    Warsaw Pact, CWC, BWC, SALT I, SALT 2, START 1, START 2, NPT, NSG, ABM, Soviet/Russo-Indo Friendship Treaty, Sino-Soviet Friendship Treaty.

    Your move.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No Sir that was NOT my point, my point was a larger comparison and I specifically said I did not think Kosovo wise or right for that purpose.
    You need to improve your English. Be that as it may, the only NATO expansion that is comparable to the Russian expansion into Georgia and the UKR is Kosovo.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    The fact is that those subjected to Muscovite rule long to be embraced by the West and repudiate any ties to Moscow at the first opportunity. In the end of the day, through all their lies, Moscow must account for why that is. Why did Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and today Ukraine long to become part of the Western system rather than the Muscovite? Well I know - as does everyone in Central Europe and essentially it boils down to the rule of law which encourages enterprise and prohibits corruption.
    Who cares? We should NOT have allowed NATO expansion, especially to the indefensivble Baltic States. The fact that we were relying on Russia to be ruled by drunks forever was short-sighted and dumb.

    There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Partnership for Peace program. We help increase Eastern Europe raise their defence capabilities on their own dime rather than committing our blood, machines, and treasure to countries who cannot and would not carry their own burdens of defence.

    You want to be free of Mosocw? We did it. We won the Cold War for you. Now, stand on your own 2 feet instead crying at ours.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 12 Feb 19, at 20:17.

  4. #139
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    OTOH NATO and the US did bend over backwards to let Russia feel comfortable. hell, PUTIN said he discussed entrance of Russia into NATO with Clinton! that's already a good indication regarding NATO's value as an offensive alliance against Russia.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

  5. #140
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    Which Treaty, Accord, Memorandum was broken? None.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Warsaw Pact, CWC, BWC, SALT I, SALT 2, START 1, START 2, NPT, NSG, ABM, Soviet/Russo-Indo Friendship Treaty, Sino-Soviet Friendship Treaty.

    Well technically they broke the Warsaw Pact with Hungary and Prague. Recently the INF of course, the Helsinki Final Accords, Budapest Memorandum and UN Founding Charter. Let's face not since Hitler have we witnessed the outright annexation of a neighbours territory.


    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You need to improve your English. Be that as it may, the only NATO expansion that is comparable to the Russian expansion into Georgia and the UKR is Kosovo.
    Which NATO country does Kosovo belong to? Is UNPROFOR the so called "Peoples Republiks Armed Forces" and commanded from Washington?

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Who cares? We should NOT have allowed NATO expansion, especially to the indefensivble Baltic States. The fact that we were relying on Russia to be ruled by drunks forever was short-sighted and dumb.
    Nature and geopolitics abhores a vacuum; they chose freely and NATO stronger for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    You want to be free of Mosocw? We did it. We won the Cold War for you. Now, stand on your own 2 feet instead crying at ours.
    No you did not win the war; you won a battle. It is not just our war or why Mueller? We have stood for five years. Only when you realise that this war is not solely against us in Ukraine, but rather a vaster subversion of our very systems of Government and beliefs in some objective truth can you act against it both on the internal and external front.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Which Treaty, Accord, Memorandum was broken? None.
    This is not even good tap dancing. I never said treaty, accord, memo. Hey, dummy, it's in black and white. Not my fault you can't accept facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Well technically they broke the Warsaw Pact with Hungary and Prague.
    Technically, they did not. The Soviets came to the rescue of the Socialists in those countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Recently the INF of course,
    Do you know how? Technically, the Russians are using a loop hole. The Americans are calling them out on it but it's a legal loop hole nevertheless. One missile with 2 engines. 1 engine is for sea or air launch (legal). 1 engine is for land launch (also legal). However, there is nothing stopping the Russians from swaping the air/sea launch engine for the land launch. The Russians say they have not done it and the system was designed so it could not be done. The Americans want the system destroyed. That's up to Washington and Moscow to decide but to say that Moscow did not have a legal point is downright ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    the Helsinki Final Accords,
    What about it? Helsinki gave Russia the Baltic States. Russia don't have them.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Budapest Memorandum
    Yeah, well Kosovo came back to bite you in the ass. The people of Kosovo determined to have independence and the rest of Serbia had zero say. The people of Crimea determined to join Russia and the rest of the UKR had zero say.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    and UN Founding Charter.
    Oh horse puckey. UNSC veto.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Let's face not since Hitler have we witnessed the outright annexation of a neighbours territory.
    Are you shitting me? Israel-Palestine, Vietnam-Cambodia, Iran-Iraq, China-Vietnam, USSR-China, China-South China Seas, Kosovo-Strpce, and I don't know how many times the borders have changed in Africa.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Which NATO country does Kosovo belong to? Is UNPROFOR the so called "Peoples Republiks Armed Forces" and commanded from Washington?
    Stop being an idiot.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Nature and geopolitics abhores a vacuum; they chose freely and NATO stronger for it.
    Horse puckey. We got 3 states that cannot be defended.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No you did not win the war;
    We won our war. Fight your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    you won a battle.
    Only in your delusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    It is not just our war or why Mueller? We have stood for five years. Only when you realise that this war is not solely against us in Ukraine, but rather a vaster subversion of our very systems of Government and beliefs in some objective truth can you act against it both on the internal and external front.
    Go jump off a cliff for all I care. The UKR ain't my defender and never will be. You and Moscow deserve each other.
    Last edited by WABs_OOE; 12 Feb 19, at 22:21.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    OTOH NATO and the US did bend over backwards to let Russia feel comfortable. hell, PUTIN said he discussed entrance of Russia into NATO with Clinton!
    And alarm bells started going off in every HQ from Washington to Bonn. Yeah, right, give Putin a veto over NATO's military actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    that's already a good indication regarding NATO's value as an offensive alliance against Russia.
    We were fighting 2 wars simultaneously, Afghanistan and Iraq. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what that kind of military power could do Russian interests.

  8. #143
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Trump is the antichrist who's hell bent on bringing down the wall on all of us. Please get rid of him.
    Sizable number of people think he's the fix. They like what he says and support him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Sadly, American politics have come down to the level of what is a common occurrence in India. The only person who won't agree with it is DE. :D :D :D
    No idea what you mean.

    One thing i've noticed here over the years is when people talk about politics in their country how familiar it sounds. Any country, familiar story.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 12 Feb 19, at 23:21.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    This is not even good tap dancing. I never said treaty, accord, memo. Hey, dummy, it's in black and white. Not my fault you can't accept facts.
    No Sir it is not in black and white. It is words, not agreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Technically, they did not. The Soviets came to the rescue of the Socialists in those countries.
    Against the provision of the Treaty.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Do you know how? Technically, the Russians are using a loop hole. The Americans are calling them out on it but it's a legal loop hole nevertheless. One missile with 2 engines. 1 engine is for sea or air launch (legal). 1 engine is for land launch (also legal). However, there is nothing stopping the Russians from swaping the air/sea launch engine for the land launch. The Russians say they have not done it and the system was designed so it could not be done. The Americans want the system destroyed. That's up to Washington and Moscow to decide but to say that Moscow did not have a legal point is downright ignorant.
    That is interesting but evidently the US 'deep state' regards them as having violated that and other international agreements.


    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    What about it? Helsinki gave Russia the Baltic States. Russia don't have them.
    But that is not due to NATO but rather their own people.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Yeah, well Kosovo came back to bite you in the ass. The people of Kosovo determined to have independence and the rest of Serbia had zero say. The people of Crimea determined to join Russia and the rest of the UKR had zero say.
    There are significant differences: The Kosovo war came on the back of the Bosnian War and was Milosovic's last attempt to aspire to some 'Greater Serbia' (though Kosovo was historically Serbian). He started 'cleansing' the Albanians in a territory, which while despicable, was his legal jurisdiction. NATO intervened largely for humanitarian reasons - to stop a massacre. Not so with Crimea where the 'let's join Muscovy' Party (for they were already an autonomous Republic) got 4% of the vote before Muscovite arrived and stood in the voting booths for the 'referendum' the choice of which was given becoming independent or becoming a part of Muscovy. Today they only weep and the Tatars are imprisoned for a VK post critical of the Moscow regime.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Oh horse puckey. UNSC veto.
    No the Founding Charter says; Article 2, "All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
    All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."


    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Are you shitting me? Israel-Palestine, Vietnam-Cambodia, Iran-Iraq, China-Vietnam, USSR-China, China-South China Seas, Kosovo-Strpce, and I don't know how many times the borders have changed in Africa.
    Which is why I said outright meaning blatant - 'in open contravention of all international law' I could have said.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Stop being an idiot.
    No Sir. The distinction matters: Is NATO (or any of it's members) 'imperialist' is the question? Who does Kosovo belong to? Crimea is occupied only for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Horse puckey. We got 3 states that cannot be defended.
    That is a tactical debate which I would be happy to have your view in a different thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    We won our war. Fight your own.

    Only in your delusions.
    So a KGB Major has not been President or PM of Muscovy for 19yrs and broken every treaty with his neighbours, murdered abroad and at home, interfered in elections from Ukraine to the US, blackmailed leaders (Orban in particular), impoverished his own people but built palaces for himself... phew! No wait... it was not an illusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Go jump off a cliff for all I care. The UKR ain't my defender and never will be. You and Moscow deserve each other.
    If I ever became as hopeless as you - and by that I means that seems to me that you lack hope - I probably would.

  10. #145
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Your precisous Democrat President Bill Clinton fought an unnecessary war because he wanted to distract from his BJ scandals.
    Even made a movie about it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wag_the_Dog

    The President is caught making advances on an underage Firefly Girl inside the Oval Office, less than two weeks before the election. Conrad Brean, a top spin doctor, is brought in by presidential aide Winifred Ames to take the public's attention away from the scandal. He decides to construct a fictional war in Albania, hoping the media will concentrate on this instead.
    Funny thing i didn't make the Kosvo connection at the time, instead

    Wag the Dog was released one month before the outbreak of the Lewinsky scandal and the subsequent bombing of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory in Sudan by the Clinton administration in August 1998, which prompted the media to draw comparisons between the film and reality. The comparison was made again in December 1998 when the administration initiated a bombing campaign of Iraq just prior to Clinton's impeachment over the Lewinsky scandal.
    Thought about sudan & Iraq. But the movie is spot on about what you said.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Feb 19, at 00:18.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Sizable number of people think he's the fix. They like what he says and support him.
    Judging by his shitty poll numbers, a sizable number of people have been disabused of that notion.

    He didn't have a f-cking clue how to be President when he took office (other than "write his name on the Executive Orders that undo Obama's Executive Orders") and he hasn't gotten any better.

    He's actually run into the same problem that Obama did when he took office: Being a great campaigner isn't the same as being a great President.

    The difference is that Obama was already a decent human being, while Trump has been and always will be a miserable excuse for the same.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat ~ Theodore Roosevelt

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No Sir it is not in black and white. It is words, not agreements.
    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No Sir it is not in black and white. It is words, not agreements.
    YOU ARE FREAKING DENSE! Does this reduce Gorbachev and subsequent Russian feelings of betrayal any less? We had a drunk Yelstin for decades who could not care less. Now we have a Putin who cares and remembers.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Against the provision of the Treaty.
    "Article 4

    In the event of armed attack in Europe on one or more of the Parties to the Treaty by any state or group of states, each of the Parties to the Treaty, in the exercise of its right to individual or collective self-defence in accordance with Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations Organization, shall immediately, either individually or in agreement with other Parties to the Treaty, come to the assistance of the state or states attacked with all such means as it deems necessary, including armed force. The Parties to the Treaty shall immediately consult concerning the necessary measures to be taken by them jointly in order to restore and maintain international peace and security.

    Measures taken on the basis of this Article shall be reported to the Security Council in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations Organization. These measures shall be discontinued immediately the Security Council adopts the necessary measures to restore and maintain international peace and security."

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    That is interesting but evidently the US 'deep state' regards them as having violated that and other international agreements.
    Translation: you don't know shit all about the actual INF dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    But that is not due to NATO but rather their own people.
    Are you stupid? Helsinki is null and void and Russia got the shit end of the stick.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    There are significant differences: The Kosovo war came on the back of the Bosnian War and was Milosovic's last attempt to aspire to some 'Greater Serbia' (though Kosovo was historically Serbian). He started 'cleansing' the Albanians in a territory, which while despicable, was his legal jurisdiction. NATO intervened largely for humanitarian reasons - to stop a massacre. Not so with Crimea where the 'let's join Muscovy' Party (for they were already an autonomous Republic) got 4% of the vote before Muscovite arrived and stood in the voting booths for the 'referendum' the choice of which was given becoming independent or becoming a part of Muscovy. Today they only weep and the Tatars are imprisoned for a VK post critical of the Moscow regime.
    What difference? Russian troops standing outside of Crimean voting booths. KLA making sure Serbs pack their bags. Serbia don't get a say. Neither does the UKR. Same freaking thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No the Founding Charter says; Article 2, "All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
    All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
    "V-25 - The Members of the United Nations agree to accept and carry out the decisions of the Security Council in accordance with the present Charter."

    UNSC veto covers it.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Which is why I said outright meaning blatant - 'in open contravention of all international law' I could have said.
    So you don't think Palestine, Vietnam, China, Vietnam, Cambodia losing their territory don't call it blatant and in open contravention of all international law? You are dense! They fought wars for those territories!

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    No Sir. The distinction matters: Is NATO (or any of it's members) 'imperialist' is the question?
    The Serbs, Russians, and Taliban certainly think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Who does Kosovo belong to?
    It ain't Serbia. NATO battle groups are making sure of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    Crimea is occupied only for that reason.
    For the exact same reason that Kosovo don't belong to Serbia anymore, Crimea don't belong to the UKR. Russian brigades are making sure of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    That is a tactical debate which I would be happy to have your view in a different thread.
    Like to be steamrolled, don't you.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    So a KGB Major has not been President or PM of Muscovy for 19yrs and broken every treaty with his neighbours, murdered abroad and at home, interfered in elections from Ukraine to the US, blackmailed leaders (Orban in particular), impoverished his own people but built palaces for himself... phew! No wait... it was not an illusion.
    Let see. He's rich, exploits his workers, buys elections. Sounds like a Robber Baron! Doesn't sound anything like Marx or Lenin or Mao. Yep, we won the Cold War.

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper View Post
    If I ever became as hopeless as you - and by that I means that seems to me that you lack hope - I probably would.
    Don't mistake comptempt for your house for a lack of hope.

  13. #148
    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Sizable number of people think he's the fix. They like what he says and support him.
    I thought too earlier.

    But like all other earlier POTUS, he's the same. Actually, he's worse. Doesn't take briefings from staff, tweets policies based on his temperament, probably corrupt to the core, right-wing nut case, and has an IQ that can be compared to an unhealthy mind. Oh, and the icing on the cake is his stupid hairstyle that he has not changed for decades.

    Let's go back, shall we? Some imaginary Soviet threat of wanting a warm water port. Military and civilian aid to Pak to counter that. De-stabilising Afghanistan to counter the Soviets, through support of Islamic terrorists. Then 9/11, 1000s die. Back to Afghanistan. Now, US wants to leave the mess they created and go back. From a NatSec point of view, does that make US safe? Maybe for another 10 years, then another boom in Manhattan. They'll leave behind jobless terrorists which the Pakistan Army would then turn towards our border, which the Indian Army will have to clean. No vision. Absolutely no vision at all from past and current POTUS.

    Even after learning and killing OBL in Pakistan, we had to lobby hard to stop the sale of F-16s to Pakistan. I don't have words to express my frustration. You can call me biased. I am. But how does the treatment meted out to Pakistan help US' NatSec in any way? Withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan was Pakistan's long term strategy, and Pakistan is winning. Pakistan defeated 2 superpowers in 40 years. How many countries can boast of this achievement? Should have been a Pakistani, nevermind being called a terrorist as long as the country was winning. Long live Pakistan!!!

    Oops, wait for another 10-15 years. Pakistan is going to defeat another superpower.

    No idea what you mean.

    One thing i've noticed here over the years is when people talk about politics in their country how familiar it sounds. Any country, familiar story.
    I was saying you don't accept criticism of the Indian Government in any form. Even when facts are thrown around, you come up with another reasoning, which to me seems another excuse, so I just quit that thread or the argument.
    Last edited by Oracle; 13 Feb 19, at 07:42.
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  14. #149
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopHatter View Post
    Judging by his shitty poll numbers, a sizable number of people have been disabused of that notion.
    Not seeing it, total approve seems to oscillate between low to high 40s, sometimes he breaks 50s but can't hold there. His best approval rates were in the first three months.Mid fifties. Only time he dropped below forty was beginning Aug 17 and just for five days. His only low point to date.

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._index_history


    He's actually run into the same problem that Obama did when he took office: Being a great campaigner isn't the same as being a great President.
    This i see, though Trump started off higher

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ez_track_feb12

    Why am i using that polling agency ? their claim to fame is getting the primary prediction correct in 2016 : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Feb 19, at 12:30.

  15. #150
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    Translation: you don't know shit all about the actual INF dispute.
    Let's see if i can do better.

    If people ask what about Russia, they also need to ask

    What about China

    What about NK

    What about India

    What about Pakistan

    What about Iran

    What about Israel

    And everybody else who also has those missiles

    The story is about the rest of the world. Russia is a side show but since US media has a hard on about Russia its always all about Russia.

    Clearly the world has moved beyond only the US & Russia having these missiles.

    Since the rest of the world wasn't included in the original treaty. Trump wants all of them in a new treaty.

    Will they agree ? No ?

    Then no point in only the US adhering to this treaty. I don't have a counter argument if Bolton wants to scrap the treaty.

    What can US do to counter Chinese IR missiles ? I don't know. There's THAAD but THAAD is a defense. Defense is a last resort. Need to have something more that gives the other guy doubt before he presses the button.

    When will the US have an equivalent intermediate range deterrent ? I don't know.

    How am i doing ?
    Last edited by Double Edge; 13 Feb 19, at 13:59.

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