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  • #31
    Why does Trump care though. He's not an American citizen.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
      Trump touts King's strong denial and we all know what Trump thinks about strong denials. His alternative theory is rouge killers. Now would the King admit something anymore than Trump would which is no doubt why he loves strong denials.

      https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/polit...eet/index.html
      If it depended solely on him the best thing would be to make this go away.

      But your congress is determined to use the Magnitsky act. The act can be applied globally since 2017.



      This means Trump's got six months to make a call. It means certain individuals from Saudi Arabia will be sanctioned as a result if not more.

      This is what Trump means by 'other things' the US can do.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Oct 18,, 13:03.

      Comment


      • #33
        Thing with saying the interrogation went wrong is like saying ...”15 of 19 hijackers of 9/11 who were the citizens of Saudia Arabia were also around WTC for sightseeing but something went wrong."

        In any case it looks like he's no more since the Saudis are partially admitting it
        Last edited by Double Edge; 16 Oct 18,, 23:08.

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        • #34

          Comment


          • #35
            Suspects in disappearance of Khashoggi linked to Saudi security services

            Three days before Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman arrived in the United States earlier this year for a nationwide tour, another Saudi traveler who identifies online as a member of the Saudi Royal Guard also arrived in Washington, passport records show. His stay overlapped with that of the prince.

            Two times before that, this traveler had made other trips to the United States that coincided with visits by top members of the Saudi royal family, including King Salman and another one of his sons.

            That same traveler, Khalid Aedh Alotaibi, has now appeared on a list provided by Turkish officials of 15 Saudis who Turkey alleges participated in the disappearance and alleged killing of prominent journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi Consulate on Oct. 2. On Tuesday, Turkish officials provided passport scans for seven members of what they called a hit squad, and that information helped confirm Alotaibi’s travels to Washington.

            Alotaibi is one of 11 Saudis included on the list who have ties to the Saudi security services, according to their posts on social media, emails, local media reports and other material reviewed by The Washington Post.

            Two weeks after the disappearance of Khashoggi, a contributor to The Washington Post’s Global Opinions section and critic of the Saudi government, there is mounting scrutiny of the 15 men identified by Turkey as members of the Saudi team involved in his death. Turkey released the list as a way to demonstrate Saudi involvement in the killing.

            According to the Turkish account and flight information, the 15 men arrived in Istanbul on Oct. 2 — most of them early in the morning — and then departed in the hours after Khashoggi’s disappearance.

            Saudi officials have repeatedly denied any involvement in Khashoggi’s disappearance and say they have no information about his whereabouts. They say he left the consulate shortly after he arrived to obtain a document he needed for an upcoming marriage.

            Saudi Arabia has made no official statement about the men or said why they may have been in Istanbul on Oct. 2. A report on the Saudi-owned al-Arabiya news channel said the 15 were “tourists” who had been falsely accused.

            U.S. officials now expect the Saudi government to accept responsibility for the death of Khashoggi in an explanation that shields the powerful crown prince from fault, said a diplomat familiar with the situation. The diplomat spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive matter.

            With President Trump suggesting that Khashoggi might have died at the hands of “rogue killers,” attention has increasingly focused on the identities of the men on the list and their reported links to the Saudi government, security services and the crown prince himself.

            Alotaibi and eight others identified as suspects by Turkish officials appear to have profiles on MenoM3ay — a phone directory app popular in the Arab world — identifying themselves as members of the Saudi security forces, with some claiming to be members of the Royal Guard.

            In one instance, Alotaibi identified himself with a symbol for the Royal Guard. In another, someone else saved him in their contacts with the same symbol for the security force, which is charged with protecting the royal family.

            Repeated attempts to contact Alotaibi using the phone number listed in the app were unsuccessful.

            Five of the eight others are repeatedly identified in the app as either officers in the Royal Guard or employees of the royal palace.

            Two of the Saudis on the list, Naif Hassan S. Alarifi and Saif Saad Q. Alqahtani, are repeatedly identified in the app as even closer to the royal family — specifically as employees of the “Crown Prince office.”

            The Post could not independently confirm that either man works for the crown prince. Phone calls placed to the numbers in the app over several days were not answered or showed that the phones were turned off. The Saudi Embassy in Washington has not responded to repeated requests for comment on the 15 men since last week.

            Four men with those same names, however, self-identify in Facebook and other social media posts or have been quoted in Saudi news articles as members of the country’s security forces.

            Another one of the suspects who appears to identify himself on the app as a member of the Saudi security forces is Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb. A decade ago, Mutreb was listed as the first secretary at the Saudi Embassy in London, according to a British list of diplomats.

            Mutreb’s name also appears in hacked emails released three years ago by WikiLeaks. In an email sent to officials at an Italian security firm in 2011, a Saudi official identified Mutreb as among embassy staff who would receive advanced security training.

            The New York Times reported late Tuesday that Mutreb had frequently accompanied and been photographed in proximity to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman on official trips to Madrid, Paris, Houston, Boston and the United Nations.

            In the article, the Times reported that it had found evidence that at least nine of the 15 Saudis on the list provided by Turkey worked for the Saudi military, security services or other government branches.

            Another man identified by Turkish officials is Muhammed Saad Alzahrani, who is also identified on the app as a member of the Royal Guard. A video showing a man wearing a black security uniform bearing the same name was posted on YouTube last year guarding the crown prince as he greeted visitors.

            The guard in the video closely resembles the picture of Zahrani in a passport image provided to The Post on Tuesday.

            Reached by phone Tuesday on a number listed in MenoM3ay, Zahrani denied being in Turkey and declined to say if he works for the crown prince, saying what he does for a living “is personal information.” When told that The Post had been provided a copy of what purported to be his passport from Turkish officials, which includes patriarchal names, Zahrani asked if a reporter knew his mother’s name. The reporter said he did not, and Zahrani hung up.

            Among the most prominent names on the Saudi team list is Salah Muhammed al-Tubaigy, a forensic expert known for pioneering rapid and mobile autopsies, who flew into Istanbul shortly after Khashoggi entered the Saudi Consulate and flew out nine hours later, Turkish officials say.

            Tubaigy, 47, is a top professor in the criminal evidence department at Naif Arab University for Security Sciences. He presides over master thesis classes on identifying bones through DNA analysis and how the use of formaldehyde limits genetic tissue analysis.

            But Tubaigy is also close to Saudi security operations, teaching and providing expert opinions on evidence collection and investigation. In 2014, he persuaded Saudi officials to let him help design and purchase a $2.5 million tractor-trailer-size autopsy lab to accompany Muslims on the hajj to Mecca.

            In an interview with Asharq al-Awsat, a London-based Arabic news organization, he touted the truck as a first-of-its-kind in the world. The mobile autopsy operation, he said, could provide preliminary analysis on some diseases in seven minutes and “provide the dissection service to the security authorities in a record time.”

            Tubaigy has not responded to email and phone messages left at three numbers associated with the profile he had set up on an Arabic subscription phone app.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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            • #36
              Turkey releases passport scans of men it says were involved in journalist’s killing

              ISTANBUL — Turkish officials have provided The Washington Post with scans of passports that they say were carried by seven men who were part of a Saudi team involved in the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on Oct. 2.

              These passport scans add to the information made public by Turkey as it seeks to fill out the narrative of what happened to Khashoggi, a Post contributor who vanished after entering the consulate to obtain a document he needed for his upcoming wedding.

              The Post is publishing the passport scans but obscuring the faces and names of the men because it has not independently verified their identities.

              Within days of Khashoggi’s disappearance, Turkish investigators said they had pieced together most of the mystery, concluding that he had been killed inside the consulate and dismembered.

              Turkey said a 15-member team dispatched from Saudi Arabia played a role in the killing. Turkish officials have confirmed that the 15 names reported in the Turkish media are those of the suspected team members, and their alleged involvement is part of the evidence cited by Turkey that Saudi Arabia was responsible for Khashoggi’s death.

              Saudi officials have repeatedly denied any involvement in Khashoggi’s disappearance and say they have no information about his whereabouts.

              Over the past two days, Saudi Arabia has allowed Turkish police to search the consulate. But investigators have been frustrated with what they say is a lack of Saudi cooperation, according to two senior Turkish officials, who cited the long delay before they were allowed to enter the consulate. They also noted apparent Saudi attempts to scrub the scene by bringing in cleaning crews and repainting areas of the consulate. “People who have nothing to hide,” one official said, “don’t behave like this.”

              Saudi Arabia has made no official statement about the men or said why they may have been in Istanbul on Oct. 2. A report on the Saudi-owned al-Arabiya news channel said the 15 were “tourists” who had been falsely accused.

              The senior Turkish officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said they were eager to interview members of the 15-man Saudi team, all of whom were believed to have arrived and left Istanbul on the day Khashoggi disappeared. It was not clear why Turkish officials did not provide scans of all 15 passports.

              The passport copies were provided to The Post on the same day as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo’s visit to Saudi Arabia, where he met with King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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              • #37
                The Saudis could have used their assets in Turkey for the job or from any other country for that matter. It smells of a botched operation from the top.
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  The Saudis could have used their assets in Turkey for the job or from any other country for that matter. It smells of a botched operation from the top.
                  I've been trying to figure out what the game plan was. It's more a miscalculation than a botched job.

                  To target khashoggi in turkey is to target Turkey. Why are the Saudis targeting Turkey.

                  Dissidents from Egypt, UAE & Saudi end up over there.

                  Turkey is already in trouble with the US as well as economically so is vulnerable to additional pressure.

                  If Turkey makes public the recordings and what not ie the nuclear option, the Saudis will break off relations which Turkey cannot afford at this point.

                  So Turkey better play nice with this joint investigation. Turks realised the Saudi game right from the start and played their hand as well as they could.

                  The miscalculation is the US would actually give a damn if a journalist was killed. Saudis are the US pivot in the gulf. Saudis matter.

                  An Iranian dissident was recently killed in Turkey. Did anyone bat an eyelid ? nobody even knew

                  Saudis abduct a sitting Lebanese PM to coerce him into doing their bidding. Who said anything

                  Why is the US so up in arms. Because the Saudis aren't paying up as expected and this is a way to make them do that.

                  Trump sank the Iran nuke deal so now the Saudi king must pay.

                  The americans want others things from the Saudis too which MBS increasingly cannot deliver. Peace deal with Israel ?

                  Maybe MBS would like to cut a deal with Iran over Yemen and the US doesn't want that.

                  Trump goes on about 110bn in arms deals. All MOU's nothing signed yet.

                  That's US pressure on Saudi

                  Listen to Ali Al-Ahmed, he's a dissident

                  https://youtu.be/4iCu9Xee53g?t=779
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Oct 18,, 14:36.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                    I've been trying to figure out what the game plan was. It's more a miscalculation than a botched job.

                    To target khashoggi in turkey is to target Turkey. Why target Turkey.

                    Dissidents from Egypt, UAE & Saudi end up over there.

                    Turkey is already in trouble with the US as well as economically so is vulnerable to additional pressure.

                    If Turkey makes public the recordings and what not ie the nuclear option, the Saudis will break off relations which Turkey cannot afford at this point.

                    So Turkey better play nice with this joint investigation. Turks have realised the Saudi game right from the start and played their hand as well as they could.

                    The miscalculation is the west would actually give a damn if a journalist was killed. An Iranian dissident was recently killed in Turkey.

                    Did anyone bat an eyelid ? nobody even knew

                    Why is the US so up in arms. Because the Saudis aren't paying up as expected and this is a way to make them do that.

                    Maybe MBS would like to cut a deal with Iran over Yemen and the US doesn't want that.

                    Trump goes on about 110bn in arms deals. All MOU's nothing signed yet.

                    That's US pressure on Saudi
                    Turkey & Iran have got their hands full with the Muslim Brotherhood while it was in power and still do with whatever remnant remains. Erdogan knows the hold of the Saudi Royals on the holiest place of Muslim worship, so an overt criticism is not what Erdogan wants, + Erdogan has not made any noise till now. They have also set the American pastor free. It was a miscalculation from the top (most probably MBS ordered the hit), so I mentioned botched. The latest is that Jamal's fingers were cut and he was decapitated. The Saudi consul asked the 15 men hit squad to do that outside the embassy or he will be in trouble, to which one among the 15 retorted if he wants to go back to Saudi.

                    I think you're right about the Turks, Saudis and the Americans here. Turkey wants to be on the good books of Trump, MBS knows very well without US support he can't do jack. And the US wants its allies to fall back in line.

                    Audio tapes reveal Saudi journalist 'decapitated': Turkish daily

                    Edit: Seems like the Saudis have taken a leaf from the Russian playbook. Dissidents, wherever you are, you are not safe. We'll come. And we'll hack you into tiny pieces.
                    Last edited by Oracle; 17 Oct 18,, 14:09.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Edit: Seems like the Saudis have taken a leaf from the Russian playbook. Dissidents, wherever you are, you are not safe. We'll come. And we'll hack you into tiny pieces.
                      China playbook. The thinking is MBS's advisors are telling him to be more like China.

                      China does all these things in the South China Sea. What can the world do ? the perception at least in the gulf is the Chinese have got away with it.

                      Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                      Turkey & Iran have got their hands full with the Muslim Brotherhood while it was in power and still do with whatever remnant remains. Erdogan knows the hold of the Saudi Royals on the holiest place of Muslim worship, so an overt criticism is not what Erdogan wants, + Erdogan has not made any noise till now. They have also set the American pastor free. It was a miscalculation from the top (most probably MBS ordered the hit), so I mentioned botched. The latest is that Jamal's fingers were cut and he was decapitated. The Saudi consul asked the 15 men hit squad to do that outside the embassy or he will be in trouble, to which one among the 15 retorted if he wants to go back to Saudi.

                      Audio tapes reveal Saudi journalist 'decapitated': Turkish daily
                      If the story becomes more macabre its because the Saudis & Turks aren't done haggling yet. These are the two blocs forming in the region

                      Egypt, Saudi, UAE vs Turkey, Iran, Qatar

                      Saudis hold the holiest place but Erdogan also wants to be seen as a Caliph of sorts. So there is some residual rivalry there too.

                      MBS has made overtures to Russia too. Putin is just biding his time until the right moment should it arrive. There was an interesting artilce i read about how the Soviets lost their influence over the Saudis because Stalin executed the Russian consul in Saudi arabia in 1938. He thought he was a spy which is insane. That action set the Soviets back to a point where their relations never improved.

                      I think you're right about the Turks, Saudis and the Americans here. Turkey wants to be on the good books of Trump, MBS knows very well without US support he can't do jack. And the US wants its allies to fall back in line.
                      Thanks to Ali Al-Ahmed. He comes across as a straight talker.
                      Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Oct 18,, 14:40.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        China playbook. The thinking is MBS's advisors are telling him to be more like China.

                        China does all these things in the South China Sea. What can the world do ? the perception at least in the gulf is the Chinese have got away with it.
                        I think it's both the autocratic regimes. Russia got away killing dissident Russian exiles in England, with a slap on the wrist. But yeah, Chinese have gobbled entire islands in the middle of the SCS. I may not like it, but hey, I don't make FP. Sh!t.

                        Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        If the story becomes more macabre its because the Saudis & Turks aren't done haggling yet. These are the two blocs forming in the region

                        Egypt, Saudi, UAE vs Turkey, Iran, Qatar

                        Saudis hold the holiest place but Erdogan also wants to be seen as a Caliph of sorts. So there is some residual rivalry there too.

                        MBS has made overtures to Russia too. Putin is just biding his time until the right moment should it arrive. There was an interesting artilce i read about how the Soviets lost their influence over the Saudis because Stalin executed the Russian consul in Saudi arabia in 1938. He thought he was a spy which is insane. That action set the Soviets back to a point where their relations never improved.

                        Thanks to Ali Al-Ahmed. He comes across as a straight talker.
                        Qatar, yes, how did it not cross my mind(?). Those 2 blocks have already formed, the worst came when the Saudis, UAE etc cut off ties with Qatar accusing it of fomenting terrorism, as if the House of Sauds consists of angels. Saudis are digging up canals around Qatar, to isolate it. The thing is Erdogan is Sunni too, and the games will increase in intensity as none of these blocks will back off. Definitely not a stable proposition for the middle-east. Increasingly I see middle-eastern autocrats over one another's throats. You're right about the Caliph thing and Erdogan, aka rivalry. Where does this leave Russia and China.

                        Chinese & Russian weapons find itself in the most complicated places. China will sell arms to both sides, as will Russia. This mess will stretch and both Russia and China will want the US to expand itself militarily and economically, thereby losing influence in the region, and be relegated to the #2 position. US, Russia balances China through India. How do US balance Russia? Russia is not economically very sound, so what are Russia's weak spots?

                        Pakistan is screaming that it is Turkey's darling now, but Pak mercenary forces (aka defense personnel) do hit jobs for the Saudi block. Iran is a nosy neighbour, Turkey stood out for the Paks in FATF, Saudi block fund their oil, dollar and ummah journey. Btw, 18 Iranian defense personnel were kidnapped yesterday, early morning, from Pak-Iran border. The Paks say it is some unknown terrorist group, and among the kidnapped are 3 IRG spooks. Also expect more competition in Afghanistan from the 2 blocks. Dubai sees Gwadar as a competitor, so CPEC can definitely be in the list of casualties in the future, if not now.

                        I have flu and my mind now is spinning thinking about the storm that might set upon the middle-east. India is the good boy here, we have good relations with all countries, except the terror breeding Pakistan and autocratic China. But, India will finally have to make its choice. This storm will not leave India unscathed. I hope our leaders make good choices.
                        Last edited by Oracle; 17 Oct 18,, 16:01.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Oracle
                          Quoting for a reference tomorrow.
                          What gets me about Ali is how he talks about Petraeus. According to Ali, Petraeus would curse his own mother if the price was right.

                          In other words Petraeus has become a talking head for hire now

                          Might want to keep that in mind the next time Petraeus says anything about Afghanistan

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            I think it's both the autocratic regimes. Russia got away killing dissident Russian exiles in England, with a slap on the wrist. But yeah, Chinese have gobbled entire islands in the middle of the SCS. I may not like it, but hey, I don't make FP. Sh!t.
                            Chinese are students of the Russia playbook. The reason i say the Saudis are more like China than Russia is the way MBS rounded up numerous princes, held them at a hotel and shook them down for billions in the guise of anti-corruption. Consolidating his position like Xi. The Saudis also are quickly setting up a surveillance state along Chinese lines. In fact they go further in some ways as any dissident that tweets may get death threats in the same post and in public. That is if said dissidents have enough influence with the west. Like Khashoggi.


                            Qatar, yes, how did it not cross my mind(?). Those 2 blocks have already formed, the worst came when the Saudis, UAE etc cut off ties with Qatar accusing it of fomenting terrorism, as if the House of Sauds consists of angels. Saudis are digging up canals around Qatar, to isolate it. The thing is Erdogan is Sunni too, and the games will increase in intensity as none of these blocks will back off. Definitely not a stable proposition for the middle-east. Increasingly I see middle-eastern autocrats over one another's throats. You're right about the Caliph thing and Erdogan, aka rivalry. Where does this leave Russia and China.
                            So you see here that the Sunni - Sunni rivalry is more important than Sunni - Shia rivalry. This point was made by the French Arabist, Gilles Kepel. Who is the Shia power in those two blocs, just Iran. Rest are all Sunni.

                            Sunni - Shia started with the Iranian revolution where the Saudis had to counter Iran's influence by exporting Wahabiism. They spent nearly $75bn in that endeavour to date, peddling their less tolerant interpretation of Islam wherever their money was accepted. It's less visible these days almost thirty years alter. Unfortunately we will be living with the after effects for some more time.

                            The Americans are trying to get Israel into the Saudi bloc, i think they are already in there unofficially. If Air India can over fly Saudi cutting down hours of travel time on its way to Tel Aviv then there is some understanding already. Israel is used to being treated like a mistress. In public nobody says anything but privately they are in contact.

                            There is a balance of sorts with the two blocs here. There is also order. In a way its an Iran win because now the Sunnis are divided unlike earlier when they were all in one bloc ofc Gaddafi & Assad excepted. Things were more uncertain a few years back when Qatar & the UAE started stepping out given the usual stalwarts, Saudi, Iraq, Egypt & Turkey had receded into the background. The Saudis were apprehending the Qataris were getting too big for their boots and decided to step in. Course the Qataris wouldn't tow the line and you have their recent split. The Saudis are back in the game now after three years of trying.

                            Russia is still looking for an opening. Unless there is a break between the Saudis and US there is no opening for Russia. Their Syria game is done now. China is open to both camps like we are.

                            Chinese & Russian weapons find itself in the most complicated places. China will sell arms to both sides, as will Russia. This mess will stretch and both Russia and China will want the US to expand itself militarily and economically, thereby losing influence in the region, and be relegated to the #2 position. US, Russia balances China through India. How do US balance Russia? Russia is not economically very sound, so what are Russia's weak spots?
                            Their dwindling economy. An economy heavily dependent on commodity prices.

                            US isn't expanding itself militarily. US already has bases in the region which is good enough.

                            Pakistan is screaming that it is Turkey's darling now, but Pak mercenary forces (aka defense personnel) do hit jobs for the Saudi block. Iran is a nosy neighbour, Turkey stood out for the Paks in FATF, Saudi block fund their oil, dollar and ummah journey. Btw, 18 Iranian defense personnel were kidnapped yesterday, early morning, from Pak-Iran border. The Paks say it is some unknown terrorist group, and among the kidnapped are 3 IRG spooks. Also expect more competition in Afghanistan from the 2 blocks. Dubai sees Gwadar as a competitor, so CPEC can definitely be in the list of casualties in the future, if not now.
                            I was curious what the Paks made of this Saudi - Turkey play since both are Pak supporters. Pak press doesn't appear to take sides and has been quite even handed. They're saying the same things as our press.

                            Paks were looking for Saudi sponsorship and the Saudis expressed interest in Gwadar, course they also had other terms & conditions. They'd want the PA as mercs in their war in Yemen, that the Paks more openly choose them over Iran and possibly a chance to foment trouble in Sistan. MEK is already a Saudi proxy and got Iran entangled in this whole nuclear thing back in 2003. The Paks have refused and so no Saudi money is forthcoming. Paks getting more entangled with the Saudis means trouble for the Paks from Iran. This would serve our interests but the Paks aren't walking into that trap. They will not make an enemy out of Iran just for the sake of the Saudi which would ultimately lead to a battle at home with their own Shias as the Saudis are dealing with in their eastern province. And as the Saudis had to put down in Bahrain.

                            I don't know what proxy opportunities the Saudis can use against Iran in Afghanistan. Taliban office was opened in Doha ie Qatar. Not Riyadh as the Talban saw the Saudis & Turks as more aligned with the Afghan govt than with them. There is some proxy play in Pakistan between the Saudis & Iran given there are already outfits that target Shias only.


                            I have flu and my mind now is spinning thinking about the storm that might set upon the middle-east. India is the good boy here, we have good relations with all countries, except the terror breeding Pakistan and autocratic China. But, India will finally have to make its choice. This storm will not leave India unscathed. I hope our leaders make good choices.
                            no storm, just some turbulence. It will pass hopefully.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Oct 18,, 17:39.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Last column from Khashoggi...

                              https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.b8db79dec302

                              By Jamal Khashoggi
                              October 17 at 7:52 PM

                              A note from Karen Attiah, Global Opinions editor

                              I received this column from Jamal Khashoggi’s translator and assistant the day after Jamal was reported missing in Istanbul. The Post held off publishing it because we hoped Jamal would come back to us so that he and I could edit it together. Now I have to accept: That is not going to happen. This is the last piece of his I will edit for The Post. This column perfectly captures his commitment and passion for freedom in the Arab world. A freedom he apparently gave his life for. I will be forever grateful he chose The Post as his final journalistic home one year ago and gave us the chance to work together.

                              I was recently online looking at the 2018 “Freedom in the World” report published by Freedom House and came to a grave realization. There is only one country in the Arab world that has been classified as “free.” That nation is Tunisia. Jordan, Morocco and Kuwait come second, with a classification of “partly free.” The rest of the countries in the Arab world are classified as “not free.”

                              As a result, Arabs living in these countries are either uninformed or misinformed. They are unable to adequately address, much less publicly discuss, matters that affect the region and their day-to-day lives. A state-run narrative dominates the public psyche, and while many do not believe it, a large majority of the population falls victim to this false narrative. Sadly, this situation is unlikely to change.

                              The Arab world was ripe with hope during the spring of 2011. Journalists, academics and the general population were brimming with expectations of a bright and free Arab society within their respective countries. They expected to be emancipated from the hegemony of their governments and the consistent interventions and censorship of information. These expectations were quickly shattered; these societies either fell back to the old status quo or faced even harsher conditions than before.

                              My dear friend, the prominent Saudi writer Saleh al-Shehi, wrote one of the most famous columns ever published in the Saudi press. He unfortunately is now serving an unwarranted five-year prison sentence for supposed comments contrary to the Saudi establishment. The Egyptian government’s seizure of the entire print run of a newspaper, al-Masry al Youm, did not enrage or provoke a reaction from colleagues. These actions no longer carry the consequence of a backlash from the international community. Instead, these actions may trigger condemnation quickly followed by silence.

                              As a result, Arab governments have been given free rein to continue silencing the media at an increasing rate. There was a time when journalists believed the Internet would liberate information from the censorship and control associated with print media. But these governments, whose very existence relies on the control of information, have aggressively blocked the Internet. They have also arrested local reporters and pressured advertisers to harm the revenue of specific publications.

                              [Read Khashoggi’s last column for The Post before his disappearance in Arabic]

                              There are a few oases that continue to embody the spirit of the Arab Spring. Qatar’s government continues to support international news coverage, in contrast to its neighbors’ efforts to uphold the control of information to support the “old Arab order.” Even in Tunisia and Kuwait, where the press is considered at least “partly free,” the media focuses on domestic issues but not issues faced by the greater Arab world. They are hesitant to provide a platform for journalists from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Yemen. Even Lebanon, the Arab world’s crown jewel when it comes to press freedom, has fallen victim to the polarization and influence of pro-Iran Hezbollah.

                              The Arab world is facing its own version of an Iron Curtain, imposed not by external actors but through domestic forces vying for power. During the Cold War, Radio Free Europe, which grew over the years into a critical institution, played an important role in fostering and sustaining the hope of freedom. Arabs need something similar. In 1967, the New York Times and The Post took joint ownership of the International Herald Tribune newspaper, which went on to become a platform for voices from around the world.

                              My publication, The Post, has taken the initiative to translate many of my pieces and publish them in Arabic. For that, I am grateful. Arabs need to read in their own language so they can understand and discuss the various aspects and complications of democracy in the United States and the West. If an Egyptian reads an article exposing the actual cost of a construction project in Washington, then he or she would be able to better understand the implications of similar projects in his or her community.

                              The Arab world needs a modern version of the old transnational media so citizens can be informed about global events. More important, we need to provide a platform for Arab voices. We suffer from poverty, mismanagement and poor education. Through the creation of an independent international forum, isolated from the influence of nationalist governments spreading hate through propaganda, ordinary people in the Arab world would be able to address the structural problems their societies face.

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                              • #45
                                There is only one country in the Arab world that has been classified as “free.” That nation is Tunisia. Jordan, Morocco and Kuwait come second, with a classification of “partly free.” The rest of the countries in the Arab world are classified as “not free.”
                                Simple as that. Helps that one tenth of Tunisians have french passports. I can't help thinking the French were also instrumental in holding onto that win behind the scenes.

                                The Arab world was ripe with hope during the spring of 2011. Journalists, academics and the general population were brimming with expectations of a bright and free Arab society within their respective countries. They expected to be emancipated from the hegemony of their governments and the consistent interventions and censorship of information. These expectations were quickly shattered; these societies either fell back to the old status quo or faced even harsher conditions than before.
                                I was too. For the first time we'd get to see Arabs off their knees and onto their feet. I followed Egypt here closely for a good two years and in the end watched them get robbed. So tragic. They had to wait half a century for that chance and lost it again. It kinda made me appreciate more what most people take for granted in my country.

                                Still, i figured they'd dumped a dictator and ousted an elected leader. Two regime changes inside of five years. There's more to come when the time is right.
                                Last edited by Double Edge; 19 Oct 18,, 05:52.

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