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  • #91
    Originally posted by Mithridates View Post
    You can say that again. Mao's sole surviving non-defective son died in that war. That's the equivalent of Al Gore dying in Vietnam, but a much bigger deal, since Al Gore Sr wasn't an emperor. Plus, Mao, Son of Heaven in all but name, literally had power of life-and-death over anyone in China. Mao's son may have died because Chinese commanders erroneously expected a rerun of the denouement of the Chinese Civil War, where their capitalist running dog opponents would give ground easily and surrender en masse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Anying Despite being posted in the rear at PVA HQ, as befitting the Crown Prince, he fell victim to a UN airstrike.
    Be careful when discussing Mao Zedong in 1950-53. He was first among equals then, and not until after the 8th National Party Congress (1956) was he anything more. Mistakes he made pre-8th required self-criticism, which did not happen later, even after the Great Leap Forward.
    Trust me?
    I'm an economist!

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    • #92
      Originally posted by tbm3fan View Post
      Coming from a thief, isn't that precious...
      Well as the saying goes "It takes one to know one"

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
        Well as the saying goes "It takes one to know one"
        Nice to know that you admit you embody this trait

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        • #94
          Between the years 2012 - 2016 there were no US FONOPS in the SCS. This was a deal between Obama & Xi. Part of that deal was no militarisation of those islands took place. Clearly China reneged on that.

          Obama wanted to enlist China's help with climate change. This was considered a more pressing challenge than FONOPS

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Between the years 2012 - 2016 there were no US FONOPS in the SCS. This was a deal between Obama & Xi. Part of that deal was no militarisation of those islands took place. Clearly China reneged on that.

            Obama wanted to enlist China's help with climate change. This was considered a more pressing challenge than FONOPS
            Obama's priorities were bizarre. With bigger guns, US should have been the party to renege on that deal. Citation?
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Obama's priorities were bizarre. With bigger guns, US should have been the party to renege on that deal. Citation?
              Chinese don't see it as reneging, they see it as self-defense

              the XI-Obama Agreement on the South China Sea, President XI promised not to militarize the South China Sea. Now, we know that there are fighters there, we know that there are SAMs deploying their artillery pieces, and when you ask the Chinese, “What happened? You made this promise,” they’re very upfront in saying, “Militarization does not prevent the deployment of self defense capabilities. All of these missiles and fighters, and artillery pieces, they’re all self defense.”
              Americans didn't buy this excuse and ONLY AFTER resumed FONOPS in the SCS, after a gap of four years.

              Jaw-Jaw: China Is A Funny Sort Of Revisionist Power — A Conversation With Dean Cheng | WOTR Podcast | Nov 13 2018

              Brad: If we want to get them to conform to international order, how do you go about doing that, since you say that you believe their ambition is to do something else entirely?

              Dean: So for example, in some ways it is being in your face. For almost four years, we conducted no freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea. That has effectively ceded all those islands that the Chinese were building construction, and the area that that encompasses, so called Nine-Dash Line.

              Brad: What did the US not to do FONOPS? FONOPS being freedom of navigation operations. Why did we choose not to do that, in your mind?

              Dean: Well, let me first be up front. I don’t know. The previous administration never quite explained why it chose not to do so. It was only under hearings, under the late Senator John McCain that the Secretary of Defense under very persistent questioning from Senator McCain, actually came clean and said, “Well, actually we haven’t done any in four years.” So and no explanation was offered. Various theories include the idea that there were bigger fish to fry, that COP21, the Paris Accords mattered more than doing FONOPS. And let’s not forget that Admiral Locklear, then head of Pacific Command said several times that he felt that climate change was far more of a problem in his AOR, area of responsibility, than any particular nation state.

              Dean: So what’s a few FONOPS, when you have the world’s climate to hopefully get the Chinese to assist with. By the way, Chinese greenhouse gas emissions have consistently risen since 2012, so I’m not sure the bargain really worked out. But that’s one example.
              SECDEF at the time would be Ash Carter and McCain gets it out of him.

              Obama gets into office in 2008, just about the time China starts to get assertive. Need to reset relations with China. The year after we hear about G2, this causes concern in the neighbourhood about some grand bargain between the US & China. Meaning spheres of influence, both countries agree they have a sphere of influence and keep out of the others. Nothing of the sort happened.

              Then we get to 2011-12 and the story changes, now we hear about pivot to Asia.

              What shocks me is how the heck does a pivot to Asia not include any FONOPS !?!
              Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Nov 18,, 17:35.

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              • #97
                Vietnam seeks India's suggestions on South China Sea's Freedom of Navigation ahead of President's visit

                US, China see rival visions for entwined Asia-Pacific region
                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                • #98
                  ^This along with others is Vietnam's problem. Taken from the transcript above.

                  If you look at the South China Sea and the so-called Nine-Dash Line, the Chinese are very upfront, often in stating. Vietnam? It doesn’t get an exclusive economic zone. It barely gets territorial waters three miles off of its shores. Never mind 12 or 24. Same for the Philippines. They are now pushing Indonesia, which even 10 years ago, the Chinese said, “Well, you know no Indonesian territory falls within our claims.” Now, they’re like, “Oh, no. Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone needs to be truncated,” because of China’s claims. International waterways that transit through the South China Sea carry 5.3 trillion dollars of trade. We are talking the carotid artery of global trade, and the Chinese are saying, “That’s my artery.”
                  There is only one way and that is to stand up to Chinese bullying. The Viets aren't going to take this

                  That is the context of this and many other visits in the past. That ET does not even hint at anything like this just that people met, said some things bla bla
                  Last edited by Double Edge; 15 Nov 18,, 18:04.

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                  • #99
                    See what they're saying

                    ASEAN leaders said they discussed the need for restraint in the area.

                    "We all agreed on ways and means not to increase tensions in the South China Sea. And that means not bringing in warships and allowing for freedom of navigation," Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamed told reporters.

                    "Small patrol boats are needed to deal with piracy, mainly, but big warships may cause incidents and that will lead to tension."
                    Err, no. We saw what happened in the four years there were no FONOPS, Mahatir.

                    Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte, who has relaxed his country's stance on Chinese claims to islands also claimed by Manila, said it also was crucial that the countries involved finish work on a "code of conduct" to help prevent misunderstandings that could lead to conflict. "China is there. That is the reality," he told reporters before joining the morning's meetings. "Strong military activity will prompt a response from China. I do not mind everybody going to war, but except that the Philippines is just beside those islands. If there is shooting there my country will be the first to suffer."
                    Kowtow to China and all is well. This Duterte for all his rhetoric towards the US caved in without so much as a whimper with China.

                    What the hell are these two saying. They are putting out Chinese lines.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                      Chinese don't see it as reneging, they see it as self-defense

                      Americans didn't buy this excuse and ONLY AFTER resumed FONOPS in the SCS, after a gap of four years.

                      Jaw-Jaw: China Is A Funny Sort Of Revisionist Power — A Conversation With Dean Cheng | WOTR Podcast | Nov 13 2018

                      SECDEF at the time would be Ash Carter and McCain gets it out of him.

                      Obama gets into office in 2008, just about the time China starts to get assertive. Need to reset relations with China. The year after we hear about G2, this causes concern in the neighbourhood about some grand bargain between the US & China. Meaning spheres of influence, both countries agree they have a sphere of influence and keep out of the others. Nothing of the sort happened.

                      Then we get to 2011-12 and the story changes, now we hear about pivot to Asia.

                      What shocks me is how the heck does a pivot to Asia not include any FONOPS !?!
                      You know, I was never a fan of Obama, strictly speaking from an Indian PoV. But Ash Carter? They put the whole SCS in Chinese hands because of the Paris Accord? I haven't heard such stupid excuses in a long time. And then Carter wanted Indian Navy as a hedge against the PLAN. This is so stupid. 4 freaking years. I guess no one in this board knew that, or I would have read it. Such incompetence at the highest levels of policy-making. Obama, even after the killing of Usama in Abbottabad, he kind of gave Paks a pass. Shameful, a new low of the previous administration, exposed.

                      The article though is very good, I liked reading every line of it. 4 years of 0 FONOPs for the Paris Accord? Still can't believe it.
                      Last edited by Oracle; 16 Nov 18,, 02:45.
                      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                      Comment


                      • So this is the post that started it....

                        Originally posted by Funtastic View Post
                        It said one of its ships almost collided with a Chinese warship in the South China Sea, in an “unsafe and unprofessional manoeuvre”.

                        China claims most of the strategic waterway and has built islands on reefs and equipped them with military facilities such as airstrips, radar domes and missile systems. ........"

                        At long last. Its about time China pushed back against America's bulling tactics of using gunboat diplomacy. They should continue to do it more often.
                        Didn't have any bullying for four years. The idea was there was an agreement but China reneged

                        Vietnam does not get territorial waters beyond 3 miles, same for the Phillipines now Indonesia ?!?!
                        Last edited by Double Edge; 17 Nov 18,, 02:43.

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                        • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                          So this is the post that started it....

                          Didn't have any bullying for four years. The idea was there was an agreement and China reneged

                          Vietnam does not get territorial waters beyond 3 miles, same for the Phillipines now Indonesia ?!?!
                          The CPC is an insecure bully. Anybody saying else, gets on my nerves. Look at how they're behaving. I was not expecting anything unusual from 50 centers though. I can smell one by reading just one post. He's missing. He'll be back with a new script with some CPC laced twists.

                          Meanwhile, China's Xi makes push into Pacific; scores 'own goal' with block on media
                          Last edited by Oracle; 17 Nov 18,, 02:04.
                          Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            You know, I was never a fan of Obama, strictly speaking from an Indian PoV. But Ash Carter? They put the whole SCS in Chinese hands because of the Paris Accord? I haven't heard such stupid excuses in a long time. And then Carter wanted Indian Navy as a hedge against the PLAN. This is so stupid. 4 freaking years. I guess no one in this board knew that, or I would have read it. Such incompetence at the highest levels of policy-making. Obama, even after the killing of Usama in Abbottabad, he kind of gave Paks a pass. Shameful, a new low of the previous administration, exposed.

                            The article though is very good, I liked reading every line of it. 4 years of 0 FONOPs for the Paris Accord? Still can't believe it.
                            Well, Obama entered office in the middle of a financial crisis. The mood in the country was absolutely zero foreign entanglements so his goal was to withdraw, draw down. Last thing he wants to do is start a fight with China. Chinese knew it and exploited it.

                            The answer is for like minded countries in the region who prefer the present order to step up and defend it.

                            Target 2% GDP for defense. The Americans do 4%, but 2% is a good start on the way to 4% if not more. 2% by 2020 is feasible.

                            Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Australia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore & India. France & UK.

                            Set that target, get support from the opposition not to mess with it. Keep at it for the next decade.

                            Develop a sense of independence where countries stand up for common values. Don't just talk, act.

                            When the US made up 30% of the worlds GDP they were the hegemon, today they make up 17%.

                            We still think nothing has changed. The Americans are trying to make that point for over a decade now. Politely and recently not so politely.

                            The Chinese see it and believe their time is coming. They can taste it. It's close. Only if no one stands in their way.

                            If the Americans won't stand up for values like they used to then others have to pick up the slack.

                            Don't be quiet when countries like Canada take the lead on issues. Support them.

                            This hiding under the parapet has to end.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 18 Nov 18,, 16:11.

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                            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                              The CPC is an insecure bully. Anybody saying else, gets on my nerves. Look at how they're behaving. I was not expecting anything unusual from 50 centers though. I can smell one by reading just one post. He's missing. He'll be back with a new script with some CPC laced twists.

                              Meanwhile, China's Xi makes push into Pacific; scores 'own goal' with block on media
                              "It just seems like they are trying to buy influence but not build influence," he said, referring to Chinese aid to the region.
                              They will learn with time. They are still new to it : )

                              Though we can see parallels in the region.

                              Chinese get involved you see Duterte talk back at the US.

                              Similar was seen with Yameen and even the Nepali leader.

                              Watch for whether those island states start talking back to the Aussies & Kiwis.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                Well, Obama entered office in the middle of a financial crisis. The mood in the country was absolutely zero foreign entanglements so his goal was to withdraw, draw down. Last thing he wants to do is start a fight with China. Chinese knew it and exploited it.
                                Sending some warships in the SCS wouldn't have cost much money or time. His FP accomplishments, except killing Usama is a big zero. Paris accord for no FONOPs. Such a visionary.

                                Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                                The answer is for like minded countries in the region who prefer the present order to step up and defend it.

                                Target 2% GDP for defense. The Americans do 4%, but 2% is a good start on the way to 4% if not more.

                                Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Australia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore & India. France & UK.

                                Set that target, get support from the opposition not to mess with it. Keep at it for the next decade.

                                Develop a sense of independence where countries stand up for common values. Don't just talk, act.

                                If the Americans won't stand up for values like they used to then others have to pick up the slack.

                                Don't be quiet when countries like Canada take the lead on issues. Support them.

                                This hiding under the parapet has to end.
                                Totally agree, and I have been saying this for years. India's defence spending as a % of GDP should start at 2.5% and then rise to 3.5% for a decade or two. But this Government, like the one before doesn't take external security seriously. Instead the PM goes to Wuhan to romanticize Xi. Pathetic. China will not give a square inch when it comes to negotiations. Those buggers have eaten and digested Shaksgam Valley and Aksai Chin. This government, when election comes, raise communal rhetoric. Look at the Ram Mandir issue now, just before the elections. And they said they would teach a lesson to Pakistan. Yeah, well, I know how that lesson is being taught. We need the Indian Army to rule India for 2 decades. Throw all of these politicians in jail.

                                Why do we need bullet train? People who have money, fly. Why do we need statues? Patriots remember & respect sacrifices made in the past. Nationalists erect statues, look my d!ck is bigger than yours. Fools. The government says we don't have money to buy new jets, assault rifles, bulletproof jackets etc, but then go on and spend taxpayers money in useless shit. Swachh Bharat, how is that going?

                                I think you meant carpet not parapet. Parapet is a protective wall along the edges of a roof or balcony.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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