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Thread: Chinese actions in the South China Seas

  1. #226
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    I'd love to see a conflict flare up between Ph and Indonesia. This will force the US to start a war against Indonesia and hopefully will lead to Indonesia's breakup into tiny island statelets
    Wow! That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Lets pick it apart.

    First, the US isn't going to war with Indonesia on your behalf. Indonesia has been a firm US ally for 50 years and is both larger and more important in every way than your nation. So, no joy there.

    Second, Indonesia isn't going to break up into 'tiny island statelets' any time soon. The only independence movement that has genuinely had a chance in the past 20 years was in Aceh, and that was never remotely close to winning and has been de-fanged with the granting of autonomy. Even if some of the outer islands broke away (and they can't) you would still have a core state on Java & Sumatra bigger than the Philippines and more important.

    So, that leaves you fighting Indonesia by yourselves. Given that your nation has neither a Navy nor an Air force worth a pinch of shit and an Army with severe limitations it is going to be a very short war. You would get beaten up by Singapore or Malaysia.

    Even when you finally take delivery of the combat ships you have on order Indonesia will still easily outclass you. They have more, they have better, they have decades of experience operating these types of equipment and they have submarines. Their Navy also has more armour attached to its Marines than your entire Army can deploy.

    You have no combat air capability to speak of. Indonesia has close to 50 proper frontline fighters/multirole aircraft plus dozens of other aircraft capable of ground attack at a minimum and air to air at a pinch. The closest thing you have to a modern fighter is a Korean trainer - Indonesia even has more of these than the Philippines.

    All of this means that moving military assets between islands is going to be difficult to impossible.

    In the unlikely event your armies ever meet the TNI would wipe the floor with you. It would be really ugly - Nazi Germany vs Yugoslavia ugly. Best not contemplate that scenario. In fact, if your nation ever does anything to provoke Indonesia you'd best hope the US persuades them to settle peacefully.

    I hope the rest of your ideas are better than this, though I'm not optimistic.


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  2. #227
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WABs_OOE View Post
    He will have to end the US defence pact first and I doubt China is capable to come to PH's aide against Indonesia.
    Am not following, why would PH have anything to fear from Indonesia ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indone...ons#Modern-day

    No history of conflict between these two

    Senate approves Philippines-Indonesia maritime boundary treaty | Rappler | Jun 03 2019

    If only the same could be done between PH & China

    Under the treaty, there will be a clear boundary between the two nations, helping Filipino and Indonesian fishermen to operate peacefully and properly

    Senator Loren Legarda, chairperson of the Senate committee on foreign relations, said the concurrence with the agreement, which is a legally binding instrument, would help resolve and protect the rights of Filipino vessels and fishermen arrested, detained, or punished for fishing in Indonesia's EEZ.

    "With a clearly demarcated EEZ boundary as guided by the official chart, Filipino fishing vessels and fishermen will be able to operate and undertake livelihood activities in our EEZ knowing where the Indonesian EEZ begins," Legarda said.

    "Law enforcement authorities of both countries will now know the maximum extent of their respective jurisdictions where they are mandated to implement laws, rules, and regulations on environmental protection and maritime security," she added.

    The Philippines and Indonesia are State Parties to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which gave parties entitlements to a 200-nautical-mile EEZ. States have sovereign rights to explore and exploit, and conserve and manage natural resources, among others, within their EEZ.

    The two countries, however, have overlapping EEZs in the Mindanao Sea and Celebes Sea, and in the southern section of the Philippine Sea in the Pacific Ocean.
    India needs to conclude a maritime boundary settlement with Indonesia as well. Most people don't realise India & Indoesia are separated by less than 60 nautical miles. The two are neighbours even though it does not seem that way on the map.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jul 19, at 10:12.

  3. #228
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle View Post
    Yeah. Thing is, some Filipino fools are celebrating it while sitting 1000s of miles away in Canada.
    There's no better nationalists like ones that don't live there any more : )

    They undergo this out of body dislocation and over compensate as a result.

    His attitude is interesting. It's not i'm so glad to get out of PH and have a new life in Canada and become a newly minted hyper patriotic Canadian. He still misses the old country.

    1st gen immigrant is like that.
    Last edited by Double Edge; 09 Jul 19, at 10:35.

  4. #229
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    Lol his popularity is continuing its rise.

    Net satisfaction rate of Duterte highest at +68
    Duterte is making trade offs on the expectation of some future return.

    He better be right for PH sake.

  5. #230
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    Idea is to attract investment from all over the world
    This is exactly what PH is doing, for example, investments from China. However, we hear a lot of whining from the agitators. If the anti-China block dont want to see te PH doing good business with China, then better give the PH a better deal. We demand $500 billion monthly fee so we can be a neutral player. Thank you.

    Indonesia has been a firm US ally for 50 years
    Lol you probably haven't seen the statistics about how Indonesians dislike America and the West in general. Thanks to its hardline Islamic indoctrination. Oh and Indonesia is not even considered a major non-NATO ally so nice try making things up.

    He better be right for PH sake.
    PH is already reaping the benefits.

    So, that leaves you fighting Indonesia by yourselves.
    So this is Proof that the US is not a reliable ally then. What is the use of the Mutual defense treaty if the US will not come to PH's aid? This also reflects the brazen two faced US policy when it comes to foreign meddling. When its Xinjiang or Tibet or Taiwan, the US is happy to cheer for their independence, but when its Aceh or West Papua, there is no cheerleading? Why dont you people just admit that the only reason you are concerned about Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan ect is because the country being involved is China? You have no moral right to support independence movements from these regions when you ignore similar movements from other countries.

  6. #231
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    Idea is to attract investment from all over the world
    This is exactly what PH is doing, for example, investments from China. However, we hear a lot of whining from the agitators. If the anti-China block dont want to see te PH doing good business with China, then better give the PH a better deal. We demand $500 billion monthly fee so we can be a neutral player. Thank you.

    Indonesia has been a firm US ally for 50 years
    Lol you probably haven't seen the statistics about how Indonesians dislike America and the West in general. Thanks to its hardline Islamic indoctrination. Oh and Indonesia is not even considered a major non-NATO ally so nice try making things up.

    He better be right for PH sake.
    PH is already reaping the benefits.

    So, that leaves you fighting Indonesia by yourselves.
    So this is Proof that the US is not a reliable ally then. What is the use of the Mutual defense treaty if the US will not come to PH's aid? This also reflects the brazen two faced US policy when it comes to foreign meddling. When its Xinjiang or Tibet or Taiwan, the US is happy to cheer for their independence, but when its Aceh or West Papua, there is no cheerleading? Why dont you people just admit that the only reason you are concerned about Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan ect is because the country being involved is China? You have no moral right to support independence movements from these regions when you ignore similar movements from other countries.

  7. #232
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    This is exactly what PH is doing, for example, investments from China.
    And what about past performance from countries other than China ?

    China only joined the party when ? last year.

    Japan had just half a billion as top investor as late as 2017. That seems a bit low. Should be way higher.

  8. #233
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    Lol you probably haven't seen the statistics about how Indonesians dislike America and the West in general.
    Indonesian public opinion on the US waxes & wanes. It also has nothing to do with the way the US calculates the strategic value of Indonesia. Only a fool would think it does.

    Oh and Indonesia is not even considered a major non-NATO ally so nice try making things up.
    Yet the US has closely co-operated with Indonesia for most of the past 50+ years and continues to do so. Indonesia has vastly more strategic value as a friend than your nation does as a treaty ally. In fact, so does pretty much every nation in the region other than Brunei & PNG. All of the other nations can pull their own weight and contribute militarily. Your only worth is proximity to China. You have no military contribution to make.

    So this is Proof that the US is not a reliable ally then. What is the use of the Mutual defense treaty if the US will not come to PH's aid?
    The US is a better ally than your nation. Remind me, what did you contribute in Vietnam? the two Iraq Wars? How about when your ally was attacked by a group allied to the government of Afghanistan? If the treaty is 'mutual' then surely your nation made a significant contribution to the war against the Taliban. Right?

    Well of course not. The 'unreliable ally' here is the Philippines. Your nation doesn't think the treaty requires you to sacrifice, why should the US go against its interests on your behalf? You do next to nothing for them. Nations have no permanent allies or enemies, only permanent interests.

    This also reflects the brazen two faced US policy when it comes to foreign meddling. When its Xinjiang or Tibet or Taiwan, the US is happy to cheer for their independence, but when its Aceh or West Papua, there is no cheerleading? Why dont you people just admit that the only reason you are concerned about Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan ect is because the country being involved is China? You have no moral right to support independence movements from these regions when you ignore similar movements from other countries.
    You were happy enough to accept US aid & assistance for decades in fighting an independence movement in your nation. You don't seem very upset about that. So, no moral high ground for you.

    Of course, you are once again ill informed. The US has supported independence movements against its own interests, as it did in East Timor in 1999. Bill Clinton was prepared to risk relations with Indonesia to secure peace & independence for Timor Leste. That was done, and the relationship was rapidly repaired. Given that your nation barely lifts a finger to support its treaty ally you are in no position to criticise the US.

    Oh, and I'm not American. I'm Australian. I know the region. I have travelled widely in it (though thankfully not to your nation - if I am going to travel to a nation that badly run Africa is more interesting). I know people from many nations in this region. I have studied its history and I keep track of political developments. I also come from a nation that does value its alliances - we fight and die for our allies. We don't take lectures from nations that cower within their borders, throw tantrums aimed at their main ally and then demand it come to their aid when they say so.

    I have a fair understanding of what your nation contributes to the region, so you can spare me the lectures. If hollow nationalist chest beating was power you would rule the world. As it is you can barely rule yourselves. No nation is going to act counter to its interests simply to help you and none should. Only a fool would think otherwise.


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  9. #234
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    Philippines continues to have territorial dispute with Malaysia over Sabah, and Malaysia has supported islamist groups in southern Philippines. If the US is genuinely concerned about Philippine sovereignty and territorial integrity, why aren't the Americans raising a fuss about this issue to the international community? Not once did we heard about the United States voicing support for the Philippines when it comes to its territorial dispute with Malaysia. but when the Philippines has dispute with China, suddenly the United States is in full support of the Philippines. We all know why, China is a global competitor of the US, Malaysia is not. therefore, if it doesnt suit their needs, the USA will turn a blind eye, it means US is not genuinely concerned about Philippine territorial integrity.
    Because the territory is Malaysian, everybody knows that. That was resolved by the US and UK like a hundred years ago.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  10. #235
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    Indonesian public opinion on the US waxes & wanes. It also has nothing to do with the way the US calculates the strategic value of Indonesia.
    Complete nonsense. Stop trying to avoid the main issue here. the US constantly bltch about how regions should be independent, Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, Taiwan, etc but on the other hand turns a blind eye to independence movements like in West Papua, Kurdistan, Northern Ireland, and many more. So just Stop Lying and Pretending that the US is sincerely pushing for Freedom because they are not.

    Yet the US has closely co-operated with Indonesia for most of the past 50+ years and continues to do so.
    Ah Yes you mean when the US turned a blind eye after the Indonesian government carried out a bloody purge of suspected communists in Indonesia? and how about the ethnic cleansing of Chinese indonesians? So the US continues to cooperate with the Indonesians despite all these atrocities but protest when China does something similar but less violent? the US is two-faced and should just admit that they are. Period.

    Remind me, what did you contribute in Vietnam?
    Vietnam is America's own trouble. Why involve the Philippines? Actually, the Philippines already gave the US a favor by allowing their forces in to station bases in the Philippines, but despite this great gesture by the Philippines, the Americans didn't paid the proper rent. Oh and isn't the US supposedly anti Communist? then why are they cozying up today with Vietnam? LOL! just Pathetic

    Oh, and I'm not American. I'm Australian. I know the region. I have travelled widely in it (though thankfully not to your nation - if I am going to travel to a nation that badly run Africa is more interesting).
    You accuse me of being uninformed when you yourself knows little of the actual facts. I am pretty sure that the Australians in the video below can completely rebuke your racist verbal diarrhea directed at the Philippines

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkTBJtXr-4c

    If you are truly the kind of a tough guy that you think you are, find a Filipino in your place and beat him up while recording the whole incident on video and post it on Youtube. But I bet you wouldn't do it because you're just an armchair general and easily chickens out when exposed as a fraud hehe.

    Because the territory is Malaysian, everybody knows that. That was resolved by the US and UK like a hundred years ago.
    But what is your ethnicity and where do you live?

  11. #236
    A Self Important Senior Contributor troung's Avatar
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    But what is your ethnicity and where do you live?
    Doesn't matter.

    =====================

    It's only fair I assume. What's shocking is the rock a lot of these people live under and ignore they fact they have been shelling and dropping bombs on "left wing dissents" and "ethnic separatists" for forty years.

    I say this ranks as the world's laziest attempt at irredentism- the Pakistanis and Argentinians are turning up their noses on this one. Hoping a court will ignore the weight of history and the evidence and instead decide to create a horrendous precedent.

    History for those two embarrassed to ask
    Two Sultanates sell (grant/lease forever with no terms to reclaim - all sovereignty given up) a territory they both have cloudy title on (in effect the ability to block a river and extort fishermen/villagers). In exchange for a small stream of income.
    Sulu Sultan was an "Indian giver" without control over any the territory in question and was getting something for nothing. He needed arms to fight the Spanish who were pushing south to defacto set up control over that part of the their colony. Belt and suspenders on the part the Imperialists, sultans to take a small amount of money or swing at get their ass beat.
    Spain stomps the Sulu Sultanate and takes its remaining territory.
    Spain affirms the UK's control of Sabah after a stand off where the Royal Navy has to check the Spanish Empire and remind them of their place in the 19th century world. Sign an agreement and Spain recognizes it as part of the British Empire.
    Sabah becomes part of British Empire (Protectorate) - administrated by a Charted Company. A colony.
    Issue dies.
    Sultanate of Sulu snuffed out entirely by USA as a political entity.
    USA sets borders with British Empire after an initial testy exchange of notes - affirming the territory in question is a British Protectorate.
    Issue dies.
    Territory becomes crown colony in 1946.
    Issue stays dead.
    Britain planning to grant independence.
    Indonesia/Philippines start whining - want to do land grab.
    Britain holds commission - finds locals wish to join Malaysia.
    Indonesia/Philippines whine.
    Indonesia swings.
    Philippines knows better.
    UN holds commission - finds locals wish to join Malaysia.
    Indonesia gets beaten up by Malaysia/UK/Australia/NZ/Gurkhas.
    Entire world recognizes the Sabah is part of Malaysia.
    Issue dies.
    Right wingers raise it as a irredentist and anti-American angle. See the Canberra bombers the US refueled at Clark while the right wingers bitched.
    Marcos trains commandos secretly on secret island base in Manila Bay. Horribly stupid plan. AFP kills them when they refuse to go attack Malaysia. One of them survives and is picked up.
    Malaysia is far more successful in helping Marcos light the Philippine's head on fire. Allows the arming of Moro rebels who bog the Philippines.
    Marcos goes to Malaysia and says "no mas" publicly. Pimps wife off to Khadiffi.
    Issue dies.
    ICJ finds Malaysia has Sovereignty over a few islands off the coast of Sabah in case against Indonesia. Philippines not allowed to join suit, nasty concurrence to their rejection which points out how hideous their claim is in the modern age.
    Issue dies.
    Paper sultan (one of a dozen people claiming dead title) on welfare in the capital is magically able to hire 200 gunmen to invade Malaysia in an election cycle.
    Malaysia asks them to go home.
    They act up.
    Malaysia goes in and kicks ass.
    Philippine President sets up a commission - one assumes to let the issue die.

    At no point has the Republic of the Philippines had sovereignty of any sort over the Sabah.
    .
    Last edited by troung; 14 Jul 19, at 05:13.
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  12. #237
    Senior Contributor Bigfella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pnoy View Post
    Complete nonsense. Stop trying to avoid the main issue here. the US constantly bltch about how regions should be independent, Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, Taiwan, etc but on the other hand turns a blind eye to independence movements like in West Papua, Kurdistan, Northern Ireland, and many more. So just Stop Lying and Pretending that the US is sincerely pushing for Freedom because they are not.



    Ah Yes you mean when the US turned a blind eye after the Indonesian government carried out a bloody purge of suspected communists in Indonesia? and how about the ethnic cleansing of Chinese indonesians? So the US continues to cooperate with the Indonesians despite all these atrocities but protest when China does something similar but less violent? the US is two-faced and should just admit that they are. Period.



    Vietnam is America's own trouble. Why involve the Philippines? Actually, the Philippines already gave the US a favor by allowing their forces in to station bases in the Philippines, but despite this great gesture by the Philippines, the Americans didn't paid the proper rent. Oh and isn't the US supposedly anti Communist? then why are they cozying up today with Vietnam? LOL! just Pathetic



    You accuse me of being uninformed when you yourself knows little of the actual facts. I am pretty sure that the Australians in the video below can completely rebuke your racist verbal diarrhea directed at the Philippines

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkTBJtXr-4c

    If you are truly the kind of a tough guy that you think you are, find a Filipino in your place and beat him up while recording the whole incident on video and post it on Youtube. But I bet you wouldn't do it because you're just an armchair general and easily chickens out when exposed as a fraud hehe.
    So, to recap:

    The Philippines only has worth as an ally because its territory is occasionally handy as bases. Its military can't even deal with generations long internal threats and hasn't fought in a proper war since Korea. In fact, it is incapable of fighting any trained force armed with anything heavier than a mortar and incapable of assisting any ally in time of war.

    And you think America would help you fight Indonesia. Yeah, sure.

    I think Ironduke might be right - you are trying to make Filipinos look bad. it makes more sense than treating your posts as if you really mean them.


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  13. #238
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    I think Ironduke might be right - you are trying to make Filipinos look bad. it makes more sense than treating your posts as if you really mean them.
    I already proved myself as a real Filipino. Why would I make Filipinos look bad when I myself am one and knowing that a negative perception of Filipinos will also backfire on me?

  14. #239
    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    It's only fair I assume. What's shocking is the rock a lot of these people live under and ignore they fact they have been shelling and dropping bombs on "left wing dissents" and "ethnic separatists" for forty years.

    I say this ranks as the world's laziest attempt at irredentism- the Pakistanis and Argentinians are turning up their noses on this one. Hoping a court will ignore the weight of history and the evidence and instead decide to create a horrendous precedent.

    History for those two embarrassed to ask
    Two Sultanates sell (grant/lease forever with no terms to reclaim - all sovereignty given up) a territory they both have cloudy title on (in effect the ability to block a river and extort fishermen/villagers). In exchange for a small stream of income.
    Sulu Sultan was an "Indian giver" without control over any the territory in question and was getting something for nothing. He needed arms to fight the Spanish who were pushing south to defacto set up control over that part of the their colony. Belt and suspenders on the part the Imperialists, sultans to take a small amount of money or swing at get their ass beat.
    Spain stomps the Sulu Sultanate and takes its remaining territory.
    Spain affirms the UK's control of Sabah after a stand off where the Royal Navy has to check the Spanish Empire and remind them of their place in the 19th century world. Sign an agreement and Spain recognizes it as part of the British Empire.
    Sabah becomes part of British Empire (Protectorate) - administrated by a Charted Company. A colony.
    Issue dies.
    Sultanate of Sulu snuffed out entirely by USA as a political entity.
    USA sets borders with British Empire after an initial testy exchange of notes - affirming the territory in question is a British Protectorate.
    Issue dies.
    Territory becomes crown colony in 1946.
    Issue stays dead.
    Britain planning to grant independence.
    Indonesia/Philippines start whining - want to do land grab.
    Britain holds commission - finds locals wish to join Malaysia.
    Indonesia/Philippines whine.
    Indonesia swings.
    Philippines knows better.
    UN holds commission - finds locals wish to join Malaysia.
    Indonesia gets beaten up by Malaysia/UK/Australia/NZ/Gurkhas.
    Entire world recognizes the Sabah is part of Malaysia.
    Issue dies.
    Right wingers raise it as a irredentist and anti-American angle. See the Canberra bombers the US refueled at Clark while the right wingers bitched.
    Marcos trains commandos secretly on secret island base in Manila Bay. Horribly stupid plan. AFP kills them when they refuse to go attack Malaysia. One of them survives and is picked up.
    Malaysia is far more successful in helping Marcos light the Philippine's head on fire. Allows the arming of Moro rebels who bog the Philippines.
    Marcos goes to Malaysia and says "no mas" publicly. Pimps wife off to Khadiffi.
    Issue dies.
    ICJ finds Malaysia has Sovereignty over a few islands off the coast of Sabah in case against Indonesia. Philippines not allowed to join suit, nasty concurrence to their rejection which points out how hideous their claim is in the modern age.
    Issue dies.
    Paper sultan (one of a dozen people claiming dead title) on welfare in the capital is magically able to hire 200 gunmen to invade Malaysia in an election cycle.
    Malaysia asks them to go home.
    They act up.
    Malaysia goes in and kicks ass.
    Philippine President sets up a commission - one assumes to let the issue die.

    At no point has the Republic of the Philippines had sovereignty of any sort over the Sabah.
    .
    Wondered where that wall of text came from, you said it here back in 2013 in the below thread

    Malaysian forces arrest Filipino militants

    I was told Malays are supporting insurgency in the PH and we see the reverse here. Company of PH militants lands in Sabah making claims on malay territory. Hilarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella View Post
    Got into an argument wiht a Fillipino online about this. Basically said the territory belonged to the Phillipines bacause Malaysia pays a tiuny amount annually to the sultan & that the people living in Sabah were 'suqtters' who had no rights. Talk about twilight zone stuff. Scratch a chest beating nationalist and there is an ethnic cleanser not far beneath the surface.
    Quote Originally Posted by troung View Post
    I visit the Philippines a lot - wonderful people - but this has exposed a lot of people as being Chicom crazy. I remember a man a few years ago railing about how bad of people Muslims are, then changing the topic to how adding the Sabah would make the nation whole.

    Long dead monarchy, the locals want nothing to do with the "sultan" and don't wish to be ruled by Manila, Sabah is internationally recognized as being part of Malaysia, and Malaysia would stomp the AFP. Just about settles it.

    Though newspapers in the Philippines are beating the drums loudly - ignoring all facts which get in the way.
    All this from six years ago !!

    Talk about Deja vu : )
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Jul 19, at 15:05.

  15. #240
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    Philippine President sets up a commission - one assumes to let the issue die.
    Aquino is an incompetent leader. He should have made the incident escalate into a full blown military confrontation. The AFP might be defeated by the Malaysian military, but it will leave a scar in the way PH deals with Malaysia and there will be long term hostilities between the two countries and muzzies will be more marginalized and the PH will be forced to appropriate a larger budget into the Armed forces and focus on China will be lessened and China will continue to devour south east asia and make it a Chinese turf and slowly kick out the muzzzes. This is a Win win situation for all humanity and a big defeat for Abu troung the lslamist

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