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Thread: Su-57 Will Not Be Mass Produced

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    Su-57 Will Not Be Mass Produced

    Russia admits defeat on its 'stealth' F-35 killer by canceling mass production of the Su-57 fighter jet

    Russia announced earlier this month that the Su-57, its proposed entry into the world of fifth-generation stealth-fighter aircraft, would not see mass production.

    "The plane has proven to be very good, including in Syria, where it confirmed its performance and combat capabilities," Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Russian TV on July 2, as reported by The Diplomat.

    But despite Russia's nonstop praise for the plane and dubious claims about its abilities, Borisov said, per The Diplomat: "The Su-57 is considered to be one of the best aircrafts produced in the world. Consequently, it does not make sense to speed up work on mass-producing the fifth-generation aircraft."

    Justin Bronk, a combat-aviation expert at the Royal United Services Institute, told Business Insider that Borisov's comments "could be charitably described as an unreasonably optimistic reason why they stopped production."


    Basically, Borisov said the plane is so much better than everything out there that Russia doesn't need to build it — a claim Bronk finds unlikely.

    Instead, Russia will stick to what it's good at, with upgraded fourth-generation aircraft in service instead of the Su-57, which was originally meant to replace the older fighters.

    The Su-57, a plane designed to function as a killer of US F-35 and F-22 stealth jets with an innovative array of radars, saw a brief period of combat over Syria, but the deployment lasted only days and didn't pit the jet against any threats befitting a world-class fighter.

    Initially proposed as a joint project with India, the Su-57 hit trouble when neither side could agree on how to split the production and technological development. After 11 years in the program, India withdrew, leaving Russia to go it alone with a weak economy.

    Now, India has been discussed as a potential buyer of the F-35 in another blow to Russia's dream of developing its own fifth-gen fighter.

    The Su-57 was never really 5th-generation — and never really stealth

    A senior stealth scientist recently told Business Insider that though the jet claimed a stealthy profile, it had glaring and obvious flaws. A 2016 report from IHS Jane's said the jet was fifth-generation "in name only."

    But the Su-57 carries a massive payload and was expected to one day carry nuclear weapons. Like the Su-35 before it, had super maneuverability beyond that of any US jet.

    By all means, the Su-57 appeared a next-level dogfighting jet capable of taking out the US's best fighters in close combat, but its failure to integrate stealth made getting in close with an F-35 or F-22 an unlikely bet.

    Bronk said Russia must have looked at the program and realized that it didn't have the potential — even with upgrades and maturation — to ever work out to be worth the price. At about $40 million a unit, Russia's Su-57 is less than half the price of an F-35, but considerably more expensive than its other jets.

    "Russia is more or less admitting defeat in building a feasible fifth-generation fighter," Bronk said.

    For that price, according to Bronk, Russia can just put the fancy radars and missiles on its older planes in greater numbers, as the Su-57's airframe was never really stealth in the first place.

    Russia is working on new tanks, submarines, and nuclear weapons, all of which tax its already large defense budget. With other projects going forward, it appears the Su-57 has become the first casualty of a budget crunch.

    As the US's F-35 starts to come online in significant numbers and China's J-20 stealth jet deploys in earnest, it looks as if Russia is getting left behind in the world of top-class militaries. Link
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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    India lost $295-$300 million depending upon which source one reads.

    RIP: Russia and India Had Big Plans to Build a Deadly Stealth Fighter. What Happened?

    China’s fifth-gen fighter jet now in operation; India’s plans with Russia still stuck

    Old articles, but says much about the lethargic disarray in Indian defence acquisition.

    RIP.
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    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    It looked dead on arrival from the start, had some nice features but never too promising.

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    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    So, we could really keep using F-15s, 16's and 18's for a long while. Modernize our F-16 fleet, buy the upgraded F-15s that we are selling to our allies and buy the latest version of the F-18s, all while cutting back on the F-35s and we would still have Air Dominance. And save money.

    Nah, that would never happen.
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

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    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    So, we could really keep using F-15s, 16's and 18's for a long while. Modernize our F-16 fleet, buy the upgraded F-15s that we are selling to our allies and buy the latest version of the F-18s, all while cutting back on the F-35s and we would still have Air Dominance. And save money.

    Nah, that would never happen.
    No way, the money must keep turning and flowing.

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    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    So, we could really keep using F-15s, 16's and 18's for a long while. Modernize our F-16 fleet, buy the upgraded F-15s that we are selling to our allies and buy the latest version of the F-18s, all while cutting back on the F-35s and we would still have Air Dominance. And save money.

    Nah, that would never happen.
    But not the A-10?
    What I don't want to see is the Bills winning a Super Bowl. As long as I'm alive that doesn't happen.

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    If the world made any sense, the US Army would at least have some fixed wing CAS assets of its own, even if its just a couple squadrons of the Paramount AHLARC (sp).

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    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    But not the A-10?
    No, Its a relic that is only survivable in a permissive environment. Everything does CAS now days. Its not about the platform, its all about the ordinance. The only thing the A-10 has that is unique is the gun. And thats not enough reason to keep it.
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

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    Defense ProfessionalSenior Contributor tbm3fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    No way, the money must keep turning and flowing.
    No, the money is turning and flowing in that scenario also. What it really boils down to is "NEW".

    Say you have a great 2017 low mileage car and just saw a new 2019 and just have to have it. Ooo, ahhh!

    Do we really think Generals and Admirals are any different from us when it comes to the allure of NEW?

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    Turbanator Senior Contributor Double Edge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    So, we could really keep using F-15s, 16's and 18's for a long while. Modernize our F-16 fleet, buy the upgraded F-15s that we are selling to our allies and buy the latest version of the F-18s, all while cutting back on the F-35s and we would still have Air Dominance. And save money.
    And India could buy a few and not worry we were buying 70's tech : )

    Nah, that would never happen.
    The money making merry go around ? May not happen in India for that reason as well. Trust we will find a good way to spin it and keep everybody in suspense for many more years.

    The flip side is how will your defense industry be affected ? less to no orders for new toys means less R&D

    Sitting on your laurels and not pushing the envelope.

    The fighter plane industry as a whole stagnates
    Last edited by Double Edge; 14 Jul 18, at 23:57.

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    Senior Contributor chakos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    So, we could really keep using F-15s, 16's and 18's for a long while. Modernize our F-16 fleet, buy the upgraded F-15s that we are selling to our allies and buy the latest version of the F-18s, all while cutting back on the F-35s and we would still have Air Dominance. And save money.

    Nah, that would never happen.
    Your biggest threat isn’t Russia it’s China and no one is claiming the J20 isn’t going to be an effective stealth fighter, they are also testing the JSF class J31 plus whatever upgraded flanker variants they have as well as the J10A/C.
    The best part of repentance is the sin

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    Resident Curmudgeon Military Professional Gun Grape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chakos View Post
    Your biggest threat isn’t Russia it’s China and no one is claiming the J20 isn’t going to be an effective stealth fighter, they are also testing the JSF class J31 plus whatever upgraded flanker variants they have as well as the J10A/C.
    When and if they work out the engine problems.

    In the meantime we already have F-22s and F-35s in the far east. Our allies(Japan, RoK and Aust) also have F-35s coming on line and some of the latest versions of F-15s and F-16s.

    We don't need every plane to be 5th generation. We need enough for first week of the war to bust the doors open

    (edit) sort of like the mix that we used during the cold war
    Its called Tourist Season. So why can't we shoot them?

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    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbm3fan View Post
    No, the money is turning and flowing in that scenario also. What it really boils down to is "NEW".

    Say you have a great 2017 low mileage car and just saw a new 2019 and just have to have it. Ooo, ahhh!

    Do we really think Generals and Admirals are any different from us when it comes to the allure of NEW?
    Yeees, the joy of "progress".

  14. #14
    Senior Contributor Versus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun Grape View Post
    When and if they work out the engine problems.

    In the meantime we already have F-22s and F-35s in the far east. Our allies(Japan, RoK and Aust) also have F-35s coming on line and some of the latest versions of F-15s and F-16s.

    We don't need every plane to be 5th generation. We need enough for first week of the war to bust the doors open

    (edit) sort of like the mix that we used during the cold war
    Russian strategy and strategic thinking has one fatal flaw in itself and its called defeatism. Only if defeat happens and if its bloody and brutal, it can create enough energy to initiate counter attack. Their thinking is defensive not offensive and stealth fighters and stealth concepts as quintessential offensive weapons and strategy, is alien to them. That is the Orthodox philosophy, first there must be a sacrifice in order for the response to be created and it reflects itself from the politics to engine designs.
    Last edited by Versus; 15 Jul 18, at 10:16.

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    Senior Contributor Oracle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Russian strategy and strategic thinking has one fatal flaw in itself and its called defeatism. Only if defeat happens and if its bloody and brutal, it can create enough energy to initiate counter attack. Their thinking is defensive not offensive and stealth fighters and stealth concepts as quintessential offensive weapons and strategy, is alien to them. That is the Orthodox philosophy, first there must be a sacrifice in order for the response to be created and it reflects itself from the politics to engine designs.
    You just pronounced Indias' strategy and strategic thinking. Budding with Soviet Russia from the early 60s, this is ingrained in the Indian mindset. I would not go as far as to call it defeatism but certainly, defensive.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles!

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