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  • Army commanders whose bases breached in terror attacks may be told to quit

    J&K: Pak terrorist with links to Jaish-e-Mohammed neutralised in Baramulla

    Lashkar militant’s relatives abducted, shot at in Valley
    Last edited by Oracle; 23 Jun 19,, 02:47.
    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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    • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
      We're going around in circles, I know this ^.
      Course you do so my point is why were there no deals this time then ?

      When Mahathir Mohamad won elections in Malaysia, all commentators were betting on this old, fragile but an anti-China PM. What we see now is politics at play. A significant number of Malaysian and Maldivian individuals got to Pakistan to train at their terrorist camps. Now, it could be a deal with China for the debt (BRI) they owe to them, or a deal with Pakistan to reign in those Malaysians in Pak's terrorist camps.
      Malays are open to a counter offer ? Note that the GCC isn't even in the running this time.

      Not because Pakistan is serious about eliminating terrorism, not because the country is going towards bankruptcy, but because of the diplomatic bashing they get. It doesn't look nice, to be a terrorist state, and be listed as a terrorist state.
      This to me was a major reason for why after 26/11, attacks in non-AFSPA India reduced significantly and remains so to this day. The diplomatic fallout made it untenable. Yeah, you can tighten up on internal security and have more international cooperation. But if the will isn't there or much reduced then the effect is more dramatic.

      This is a stated pak reason but you've rejected it in the past.
      Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 19,, 07:40.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
        Hurriyat ready for talks, says J&K governor

        What is there to talk? And who's Hurriyat? Whoever doesn't like Indian rule, can migrate to any green pasture they think is fit.
        They're unconditional. This opens up possibilities. They can influence many people.

        Comment


        • I can see why they are doing this but it needs good judgement. Will the commander in charge of the Pulwama convoy also be treated the same. Should political leaders be made to stand down each time there is a terrorist attack. Slippery slope isn't it. You can prevent 99 attacks and fail on the 100th and then be made to resign ? this is why i said good judgement needs to be exercised.

          I sense the chowkidar thing kicking in, ever since the elections concluded i notice officials across the board been taken to task for lapses. Either perceived or real. Slowly a zero tolerance atmosphere for incompetence is being created. Because it didn't really happen in the last term. No big wigs were brought to justice. Just lower downs.
          Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 19,, 08:34.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            Course you do so my point is why were there no deals this time then ?
            Early to say there were no deals this time. I will wait.

            This is a stated pak reason but you've rejected it in the past.
            I still do. I don't trust terrorists a.k.a Pakistan Army and the ISI. Posted links and talked about much of what could have been disastrous attacks on nuke plants, naval bases, diplomatic enclaves etc. Pakistanis talk through their ass. Where's exactly the confidence to trust those mercenaries? Some book, some ex-ISI idiot. Thanks, I trust my instincts.

            Post-Balakot, Indian Navy hunted for Pakistani submarine for 21 days

            Hahahahahaha!

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            I can see why they are doing this but it needs good judgement. Will the commander in charge of the Pulwama convoy also be treated the same. Should political leaders be made to stand down each time there is a terrorist attack. Slippery slope isn't it. You can prevent 99 attacks and fail on the 100th and then be made to resign ? this is why i said good judgement needs to be exercised.

            I sense the chowkidar thing kicking in, ever since the elections concluded i notice officials across the board been taken to task for lapses. Either perceived or real. Slowly a zero tolerance atmosphere for incompetence is being created. Because it didn't really happen in the last term. No big wigs were brought to justice. Just lower downs.
            We can't compare Pulwama with Uri. People were sleeping when Uri happened. I blame both the government and the Army leadership for these type of incidents. If nothing, close down the damn city/town, and then move your convoys. If people shout, let them shout, they themselves have brought Kashmir in this position today. The people should suffer too.

            Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
            They're unconditional. This opens up possibilities. They can influence many people.
            Sir, what possibilities? What influence?

            These rascals should be tied at the end of a tank's turret and marched inside Kashmir as well as along the LoC.
            Last edited by Oracle; 23 Jun 19,, 13:27.
            Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
              Early to say there were no deals this time. I will wait.
              I am basing my analysis on your DNA article that says there will be no blacklisting come October. we can wait and see but the Pak reaction makes me believe it. They're confident they won't be countered by others and nobody has said anything.

              If one assumes the IMF deal has come through then its logical to expect there will be no blacklisting. Though given the delay with confirmation of receiving IMF money its still an open question.

              I still do. I don't trust terrorists a.k.a Pakistan Army and the ISI. Posted links and talked about much of what could have been disastrous attacks on nuke plants, naval bases, diplomatic enclaves etc. Pakistanis talk through their ass. Where's exactly the confidence to trust those mercenaries? Some book, some ex-ISI idiot. Thanks, I trust my instincts.
              The lack of any notable attack in non-AFSPA India in over a decade since 26/11 ? i keep coming across people that think since Modi came to power in 2014 its been quiet. Wrong! its been quiet since 26/11 for an ENTIRE term of UPA2. When i say quiet i mean in comparison to UPA1 where something blew up somewhere every three or so months with alarming regularity until 26/11.

              You mean to tell me our intel is so good that we've prevented them all ? why then are we unable to prevent attacks in J&K ?

              I'm going by what Moeed said, the diplomatic fallout was unacceptable. What he really means is nobody is left to offer diplomatic cover for the Paks. The americans must have told them after 26/11 that there would be none henceforth. And so things have been calm.

              Now what happens if some spectacular attack happens tomorrow, not in J&K but in non-AFSPA India. It means the PA's calculus has changed. That they have somebody who can give them diplomatic cover. Who could that be ? Only another P3 member. They need the support of at least two P3 members to get away with it. One alone isn't sufficient.
              Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 19,, 13:55.

              Comment


              • Very interesting so now we know why the Navy was on full alert and for an extended period. They were on a sub hunt and once the quarry was located things calmed down.

                At the same time should the Paks attempt an misadventure we'd have to go full bore on their navy. A recent interview with the previous navy chief hinted at it. Note that he did not say anything about this missing sub. He spoke very generally which is why i didn't bother to post the interview.
                Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 19,, 14:06.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                  Sir, what possibilities? What influence?

                  These rascals should be tied at the end of a tank's turret and marched inside Kashmir as well as along the LoC.
                  Co-opt them into the state. Same policy employed with insurgents in the NE.

                  Hit them hard over the head and then teach them to play the piano.

                  Comment


                  • Balakot: This book offers an ‘inside account’ of India’s air-strike on Pakistan territory

                    From 16–20 February, the IAF worked with intelligence agencies at the operations room in Delhi’s Vayu Bhawan. With National Security Advisor Ajit Doval receiving a daily update on proceedings, the deliberations were honed by satellite imagery, human intelligence from the ground in Pakistan and PoK, and photographs from a pair of Heron drones flying daily missions along the Line of Control (LoC).

                    On 21 February, the IAF presented a classified set of “target tables” to the government via the National Security Advisor.

                    The first in the list of seven separate target options was a JeM terror training compound that sat on a hill called Jabba Top outside the city of Balakot in Pakistan’s Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa province.
                    The IAF recommended Balakot, just 100 km from Pakistan’s capital Islamabad, since it was a secluded target with the lowest probability of non-terrorist casualties.

                    The two other “viable” targets presented to the government were in PoK – Muzzafarabad, 23 km south-east of Balakot, and Chakothi about 70 km away. But these two, along with Bahawalpur, carried not just the risk of collateral damage, but a slightly higher chance of being hindered by Pakistani air defences. Among the remaining options was Muridke, north of Lahore, the city that held the headquarters of that other dreaded India-focused terror group, the Lashkar- e-Taiba (LeT). This too was deemed a highly risky target to consider.

                    By midnight on 22 February, a highly controlled chain of command decided that the Indian jets would strike the first target in the list – the one outside Pakistan’s Balakot. Every man and woman in the secret chain was aware that if such a mission went through, it would be India’s first air strike on Pakistani soil since the 1971 war. What amplified the mission ahead was that the two countries weren’t at war in 2019. Could such a mission change that?

                    There was another important reason why Balakot was chosen.
                    Unlike Muzzafarabad and Chakothi, Balakot was in Pakistan and not PoK. As an international message, an air strike on sovereign Pakistani soil – as opposed to PoK, which India considers its own territory – would make all the difference in the world.

                    The target dossier submitted to the government also contained pages of data detailing the latest intelligence assessments of the kind of damage that could be caused to terrorist infrastructure in each case. In the case of Balakot, apart from satellite imagery and some medium-grade electronic intelligence, the Indian intelligence agencies had also been able to procure invaluable human inputs from Balakot town.

                    The intelligence, obtained from Indian “assets” on the ground, provided invaluable shape to the target, and was the original source of a number that would later be the subject of much controversy and debate. India’s assets in Balakot had reported that there would be at least 300 terrorists and terror trainees on site at Jabba Top at any given time. In other words, a facility that was known to house a significant enough number of handlers, terrorist recruits and ideologues, to justify a high-risk air strike from airspace peppered with and primed for anti-air defence.

                    As a fully intelligence-based operation, it was imperative that India chose targets that involved not just terror infrastructure, but the presence of a significant number of terrorists at any given time.

                    Apart from the National Technical Research Organisation’s (NTRO) signal intelligence inputs, it was this human intelligence that helped guide and lock India’s choice of target.

                    It wasn’t the first time India was using such human assets for an offensive operation in hostile territory. In September 2016, during the Indian Army Special Forces “surgical strikes” in PoK, Indian assets in the JeM had confirmed the terror launch pads as viable targets, revealed first in the first book of the India’s Most Fearless series.

                    A data analyst with one of India’s intelligence agencies told the authors, “An operation of this kind is very difficult without human intelligence on the ground. It would have been a huge risk to do so without a conclusive word to corroborate your other inputs, whether satellite or electronic.”

                    An Army officer who served on the composite intelligence team that formulated the target packages during the 2016 trans-LoC strikes says, “The question is not about whether ground assets were used or not. They 100 per cent were. The only question, might I add that nobody needs to ever know about, is whether these were the same assets that helped in 2016 or similar assets – or assets of a totally different kind. That will hopefully remain guesswork. Let films and books (!) do the guessing.”

                    On 24 February, pilots of the Mirage 2000 squadrons in Gwalior were briefed about the mission. That same day, aircraft would be airborne over central India for a short mock air drill alongside a Phalcon AWACS jet and Ilyushin-78M mid-air refuelling tanker from Agra. The jets taking part in the drill didn’t return to Gwalior, instead landing at a base in Punjab. They would remain at the base all of the next day.

                    The IAF was about to take a violent break from history, but in Delhi, every effort was made to ensure that it was business as usual. On the night of 25 February, hours before the Mirages took to the air on their mission, the IAF hosted a customary farewell banquet for the outgoing chief of the Western Air Command, Air Marshal C Hari Kumar – he was retiring three days later. The sit-down dinner was organised at the Akash Air Force Officer’s mess near Delhi’s India Gate, where just a few hours earlier Prime Minister Narendra Modi had inaugurated the country’s National War Memorial.

                    Excerpted with permission from India’s Most Fearless 2: More Military Stories of Unimaginable Courage and Sacrifice, Shiv Aroor and Rahul Singh, Ebury Books.
                    Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                      I am basing my analysis on your DNA article that says there will be no blacklisting come October. we can wait and see but the Pak reaction makes me believe it. They're confident they won't be countered by others and nobody has said anything.

                      If one assumes the IMF deal has come through then its logical to expect there will be no blacklisting. Though given the delay with confirmation of receiving IMF money its still an open question.


                      The lack of any notable attack in non-AFSPA India in over a decade since 26/11 ? i keep coming across people that think since Modi came to power in 2014 its been quiet. Wrong! its been quiet since 26/11 for an ENTIRE term of UPA2. When i say quiet i mean in comparison to UPA1 where something blew up somewhere every three or so months with alarming regularity until 26/11.

                      You mean to tell me our intel is so good that we've prevented them all ? why then are we unable to prevent attacks in J&K ?

                      I'm going by what Moeed said, the diplomatic fallout was unacceptable. What he really means is nobody is left to offer diplomatic cover for the Paks. The americans must have told them after 26/11 that there would be none henceforth. And so things have been calm.

                      Now what happens if some spectacular attack happens tomorrow, not in J&K but in non-AFSPA India. It means the PA's calculus has changed. That they have somebody who can give them diplomatic cover. Who could that be ? Only another P3 member. They need the support of at least two P3 members to get away with it. One alone isn't sufficient.
                      I gave you news sources that stated that attacks on Naval bases, nuke plants were foiled with arrest of sleeper cells and terrorist sympathisers. This was in South-India. A Sri Lankan Tamil with links with the LeT was arrested too.

                      You are free to go with what Moeed says, he's cover for legitimizing Pakistan's terrorist attacks in Washington think tank circles. Sorry, I never have bought this argument, never will. Unless Pakistan shows concrete evidence, I don't trust any of them or your logic here. You have been repeating the same thing over and over again, and I have given you proof every time. Evidence would be public hanging of the pigs - Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, Syed Salahuddin etc or hand them over to India. There are others too - Dawood, Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and tens of others.

                      Your logic doesn't stand, so come up with something new or forget this discussion. No need to repeat what we've been discussing for years.
                      Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Double Edge View Post
                        Co-opt them into the state. Same policy employed with insurgents in the NE.

                        Hit them hard over the head and then teach them to play the piano.
                        Insurgents of the NE are killed, point blank. Those who want to talk are given a chance, COIN ops continue nonetheless. Insurgents in the NE didn't ethnically cleanse 5 lac Kashmiri Pandits. So it's not the same policy. Kashmir and NE are different. We don't chant slogans of liberating NE from the clutches of the Indian Government. We are with the government in killing these insurgents = terrorists.
                        Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                          Insurgents of the NE are killed, point blank. Those who want to talk are given a chance, COIN ops continue nonetheless. Insurgents in the NE didn't ethnically cleanse 5 lac Kashmiri Pandits. So it's not the same policy. Kashmir and NE are different. We don't chant slogans of liberating NE from the clutches of the Indian Government. We are with the government in killing these insurgents = terrorists.
                          Go back to the 60s and the ops in Mizoram, having to bomb Aizawl. The situation there was more precarious. As is said the idea was go after those opposed and co-opt those that surrender. Those who surrendered got into office. Its the same plan. Just that in the NE there wasn't all the international exposure and things progressed quietly over decades. The NE never really spilled out onto the national stage what ever battles remained there. Nagas and Manipuris are the only holdouts. What worked in the states favour was the lack of unity between groups. All splintered and then inter faction rivalries.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Oracle View Post
                            I gave you news sources that stated that attacks on Naval bases, nuke plants were foiled with arrest of sleeper cells and terrorist sympathisers. This was in South-India. A Sri Lankan Tamil with links with the LeT was arrested too.
                            All well and good. But the results are striking. We are talking about a kid that couldn't pass exams, all of a sudden acing them and keep on doing it for a decade.

                            Why couldn't we prevent the Pathankot attack ? we were lucky that more damage wasn't caused. Pathankot is in Punjab. What is so difficult with going further south. Are there no more safe houses or supporting networks left ?

                            If you think nothing moves without the PA's say so then orders seem to be Kashmir & Punjab but no further.

                            You are free to go with what Moeed says, he's cover for legitimizing Pakistan's terrorist attacks in Washington think tank circles.
                            That he does but there is more. He's an American citizen and the point he makes is without the Americans the results would not have been as spectacular. Thing is he isn't saying it quite the way i did. But the implications were obvious after Balakote. Why didn't the Americans stop India, why this right to self defense business. He couldn't answer that when challenged so then went with numbers. It was only a 1 -1 according to him. Did not become a 2 -1 or 3 -2. No chance the external pressure on the Paks was quite high. This he never admits. He still argues parity and the way it ended is his submission. 1-1. The same applies with the release of the pilot. Pretty clear they have no cover from the Americans and have not had any for many years now.

                            World sees India won't put up with this any longer and so instead of telling us to show restraint the pressure now gets applied on the Paks. Forget cover like in the good old days, the world ties their hands now. It's a complete reversal.


                            Sorry, I never have bought this argument, never will. Unless Pakistan shows concrete evidence, I don't trust any of them or your logic here. You have been repeating the same thing over and over again, and I have given you proof every time.
                            You're not the only one who rejects it. I've not come across a single Indian commentator that has said this. They improved intel, better integration between services. More international cooperation on terror. All of this is there but nobody is asking whether the Paks imposed any limits on themselves. The idea is all of India is still open and remains to be. I'm not saying we let down our guard just pointing to the lack of any spectacular attacks else where in the country and wondering why as to the lack of success when there is no let up in J&K. If it is accepted by others that J&K is disputed territory then that is where Pak AOR will be and no further. Might spillover into Punjab but that's it.

                            Evidence would be public hanging of the pigs - Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, Syed Salahuddin etc or hand them over to India. There are others too - Dawood, Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and tens of others.

                            Your logic doesn't stand, so come up with something new or forget this discussion. No need to repeat what we've been discussing for years.
                            Wait a minute, i'm not saying they've turned a new leaf. I'm saying that their area of operations has diminished and given the reasons why. The test of this theory has stood for ten years now. Whether it can continue remains to be seen. I don't see why not as the Russians agree that J&K is Indian. The best the Paks can get from the Russians is a neutral stance which is what they got with Balakote.
                            Last edited by Double Edge; 23 Jun 19,, 20:18.

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                            • ^ Pathankot proves your theory wrong. You say it's a spillover, it's not. Pakistani terrorists will hit wherever they get the chance. Crossing Kashmir into the mainland has become tougher due to counter-insurgency grids and the CRPF/paramilitary manning checkposts. To get around these risks, Pak uses other bases - Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. Another big attack in mainland India is just a matter of time.
                              Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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                              • Tatmadaw & the Indian Army is killing scores of NE terrorists along the international border. 100s have been arrested and are in Burma's jail.

                                Key operative of NSCN-K Myanmar faction apprehended in Nagaland
                                Last edited by Oracle; 24 Jun 19,, 02:15.
                                Politicians are elected to serve...far too many don't see it that way - Albany Rifles! || Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government, when it deserves it - Mark Twain! || I am a far left millennial!

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